Would you like to see The Maiden's bottom? Would you like to stroke your hand over the soft, smooth curves of your own Maiden's bottom? Then step right up, this is the thread for you!

Ehrm... ok, so we're talking about the Maiden of the High Seas' sadly lacking bottom hull, of course. Get yer mind out of the gutter!

I've been contemplating kitbashing a bottom hull, and I figured i might as well start up a thread to gather some ideas and references. The geometry will be the hard part, especially getting those curves right with nothing but strips of paper. As for texturing, for now I'm only planning to attempt the outside. Just slap on a good planking texture (probably cobbled together from the rest of the hull). If we can get something out that looks good enough, I'm hoping we may be able to convince Denny to iilustrate the inside.

Ok, let's get cracking... First, we need some reference materials for ship hulls. I believe the consensus is that the Maiden is a Galleon. Here are some drawings that may come in handy:












If anyone knows where to find any more engineering-type drawings like the first one above, those would be *really* useful! (Especially those hull outlines in the bottom and top right of the first figure are priceless.)

Denny, if you feel the urge to bud in too, ye'r always welcome!

Couple of design ideas to mull around:

- The heart-shaped stern clearly visible in the third drawing seems to be quite typical of this kind of ship, so that one is a must. Besides, it's just about the only flat surface on the whole damn thing!

- I'm thinking of having a pretty substantial keel at the bottom - maybe two layers of foamcore sandwiched together?

- How deep should the bottom hull go? If we assume all of the missing part is below the waterline, how many inches are we aiming for? Should we have an intermediate deck above the bottom hold?

- For the middle section, I can probably get away with a generalized cilynder (i.e. with a non-circular cross section).

- For the bow and stern, I'm hoping I'll be able to use strips that are aligned with the planks, to minimize the number of obvious seams.

There is a hobby magazine called 'Ships in Scale' that would be a great resource.

True, but I'm a cheapskate, and doing it from (almost) scratch feel more fun right now.

Hmm... they do have a nice website though, and a link to a great Ship Models FAQ.

One issue with detailed ship plans is that the Maiden will by necessity need to be much more stylized. Still, they're a great place to start.

Conaill, thank you. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

This means I don't have to continue to torture myself about how to do this!

I've been toying with the idea for a while (with no real results, unfortunately), but I'd rather focus on other things...

The only real thing I thought of was that the bottom should overlap the existing side hull, by about a half inch (using the same textures), so that it can be easily removed. This should be easy to do with modified hull braces that sit lower on the bottom's inside walls.

Just so you know... this will probably wind up being a very long-term project. Don't expect any concrete results overnight! I'm essentially doing this in my very limited spare time, and without any kind of CAD program.

That being said, the more people willing to pitch in on this project, the sooner we can start showing some results!

I have bought several wooden ship models that I want to build some day, you know, when I get time - or at least that was what I said when I got them. On a good side, the one item may have some interesting plans, at least for midships. I have a Center Secion of the Frigate Essex, which is open at front and back with complete details (except they used long guns, and Essex was known for its carronades). The thing that may help is the plans give a shape that you may be able to use. It will also give some idea on the thickness of the keel. I'll dig out the kit and scan that part of the plans.

Another part of the planning is what do you want the finish to look like? The Galeons are a bit early for coppering, but not completely unheard of. The most probably finish for the lower hull is white lead. Pictures of models in the museums and painting directions on kits show the bottom hull painted white, but this was a high lead content paint that was meant to keep the sea life from attaching themselves to the hull and eating holes in the wood. Not as successful as the later coppering. Also, a plain wood covered in tar, so black with some spots of wood showing here and there. There are many times that ships had to be beached while the hull was cleaned and fresh tar or paint applied, both to bring the ship back up to speed, literally, after taking lots of barnacles or other sealife greatly reduced their speed, and to act preventativley on long voyages.

One more thought - this might be a good time to raise the issue of second gun decks, turning the current lower deck into a gun deck and then having a lower deck with stowage, cable tier, etc. How about the "head"? The "seat of comfort", usually found at the fo'c'sle for the general crew, or in a side of the captains cabin. Take the Pubs and Inns toilet seats and place in these locations.

Lastly, an appropriate stand for the vessel, one with cutout support all around the shape of the lower hull, and a place for the name placks already included. Just a few things to think about.

Tom

Though it is worth pointing out that the Maiden is not a proper galleon, lacking the extra gun decks - being closer to a pinnace, or possibly a frigate or fourth rate. (all, including the pinnace, are to my mind superior vessels to the unstable galleon, the number that sank when being launched, or even from firing all the cannon on one side of the ship at the same time...)

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* I would lean toward the fourth rate, which is a very nice vessel indeed.

Some great suggestions, Tom!

Sure, if you have any plans you think may be useful, feel free to send them my way. Right now, I'm using the section curves on that first picture I posted.

For finishing... well, I'm not a graphic artist like Denny, so it'll have to be EASY. I was thinking to use a darker version of the side hull planking. But I think I could pull off a white paint look

Extra details, such as a second gun deck or head I'll gladly leave for someone else to kitbash. I think I'll have plenty on my plate just figuring out the hull geometry...

Hey Grump! You must have sneaked in while I was replying to Tom. Didn't mean to ignore you there...

Now, would any of this actually have an effect on what the hull should look like? And if so, can you dig up any drawings that would illustrate the point?

FYI, there's an interesting entry in the Ship Model FAQ on the Definition of Galleon:

There's also a great page on Galleons in the Development of the Square-Rigged Ship website.

Edit: Oops, that image is blocked, apparently. Here's the thumbnail version. Round carrack stern on the left, square galleon stern on the right:

The statement that all ships of the line were Galleons is both true and false - When the galleon was king of the sea it was indeed the design favored by nearly every navy for their men o' war. However as time passed it became outmoded, and was replaced by what were then called 'ships of the line'. The galleon was top heavy, and slow to manuever - though compared to the dedicated warships of the Ships of the Line it carried a vast amount of cargo.

One of the largest galleons was built by Sweden, and called the Vasa after the royal family. It sank upon being launched.

The galleon was sometimes outmanuevered and destroyed by the much, much smaller frigate, which was sometimes called a 'fifth rate' warship. Not quite up to the rigors of battle. The U.S.S. Consttution is an example of frigate.



I think that I may have posted some images of other ships of the line somewhere else on this forum, let me wander off for a few moments... found it!

No images of fourth rates though...

The Auld Grump

*trying to think clean thoughts while thinking of maidens' bottoms*

Whoah mate, that weren't what I meant by spanker!

Found a painting with a fourth rate, not perfect, butt... err, I mean but!
Launch of a Fourth-Rate on the River Orwell

The Auld Grump

Some good info and pictures of 4th rates in this book (couple are even viewable).

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1861760256/103-5902407-3594257

Certainly arguable that the big American frigates would qualify as 4th rates too.

Thanks guys!

Now, sorry for having such a one-track mind, but... does any of this have any impact on what the shape of the bottom hull should look like?

Here be free plans.....

http://www.all-model.com/list1/hamburg/hamburg.html

This one looks about right, but there are others there to look at, and all have the section plans. Basically, you can do a cutaway at each line and it will give you the shape, side and end-on, of the hull at that point.

Tom

If I recall properly, and despite looking I could not find pictures to confirm this, the fourth rate also had a 'valentine' bottom, but much less pronounced than that of a galleon - having a wider bottom increases stability (much needed with the top heavy galleon), but increased drag. The scantings were also different, helping to reinforce the hull timbers, and protecting them somewhat from shivering - when a galleon was struck right the entire side would sometimes be crushed inwards, like an empty eggshell - or more accurately like a barrel being kicked by a mule. Shivered timbers would throw splinters of wood into the flesh of everybody in the area as the timber flexed - not good for a prolonged life! Shiver me timbers was not a sign of a happy pirate.

The Auld Grump



The Auld Grump

Dimples; there have to be dimples! LOL

*EDIT* In keeping with the "bottoms" theme, I like the Golden "Hind."

*EDIT" "Fanny" would be a cute name for a ship. LOL

Woohoo, jackpot! Thanks a bunch, Tom, this is exactly what i was looking for.

The site has four models available for free download: the Mayflower, two Frigates and a Sloop. Anyone care to expound on which hull shape would be most appropriate for the Maiden?

merchant ship "Mayflower":


heavy frigate "Wappen von Gamburg":


frigate "Rotter Lowe":


sloop "Mirny":

By period, probably the Mayflower, but that last one looks like it might fit the hull of the Maiden if not the class we have for it. All the others have the multiple rear decks leading up to the stern castle as the Galeon class should have. These were the ships that the names Stern Castle and Fore Castle came from that became the phrase used pretty much universally for the rear and front of the ship, in that archers or missile troops worked from these "castles" to fight and it was a bloody fight indeed after boarding at the mid-ships. Later, the "castles" disappered, but the names stayed around. Cant say as I have heard a short version of stern castle, but fo'c'sle is said pretty much as one word representing fore castle. Glad I could help. Now to work on those heads.......

The nice thing about that sloop is that it's a very square hull. Well, "nice" from the point of view of ease of geometry and being able to place miniatures on the inside anyway. Not so nice in terms of beautiful curves, unfortunately.

I'll probably try to mix some features of the sloop, the second frigate, and that first ship I posted on the first page. Either way, I'll have to make some concessions for ease of building of the model. There's no way I'm going to make each plank a separate piece of paper, of course. Realistically, I'm hoping to maybe have 3 or at most 4 "strakes" (longitudonal strips of planking) in the curvy part of the bow or stern.

My vote's for the good Sloop Mirny.

Looks to be the easiest to design, and build!

After so long without any bottom at all, I think anything will be welcome.

Yes, I lost mine in the Army - got chewed clean away. Oooops, I suppose you meant the ship.

Ironically, one of my main problems with the Mirny is that she has a rounded stern, instead of the typical squared-off heart shaped stern. I think I may have to do something about that...

While I'm struggling with the hull geometry... anyone care to start on a display stand?

I'm thinking a nice wooden base, about 18x7" (just right to fit on two sheets of paper). May want to scan in some nice wood texture - mahogany, or oak perhaps. A brass plaque on each side, one with "Maiden of the High Sees" and the WWG logo engraved. The one on the other side blank for the owner to fill in. Two or three very sturdy cradles rising up from the base to rest the ship on - I'll provide the profiles (eventually).

Just some ideas...

I wouldn't get too hung up on how many decks the Maiden has. Its obvious Denny compressed them for easy building and playability. Galleon (or Frigate) or not, using a 1" or even 1.5" scale, the Maiden doesn't have enough decks for really anything of its size. It also doesn't have enough gun ports on the top deck unless it is purely a merchant vessel.

But that is no biggie. Extra decks (including a full gun deck or two, and berths) are easy to add. I've been working on creating extra decks for my two Maidens (one full size, one two-master Brig sized). I'm currently doing them in Dundjinni, but I'm considering doing the final versions with actual Maiden flooring/walls. I'll likely use the current bottom deck of the Maiden as the hold, with the other decks in between the top deck and the hold (and not worrying about actually creating the bilge).


FYI, if you're interested in some fascinating literature involving the Navy and ships and such, Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey/Maturin novels are excellent (if those names are familiar, it is because the movie Master & Commander is based of O'Brian's books). Its interesting how (at least in the Royal Navy) the terminology of a ship type is based not just on the ship itself, but the rank of its Captain.

Did some more measuring and thinking over the weekend...

Based on the ship plans I have now, it seems like the Maiden's waterline should be a little underneath the current lower deck. Which works out great if you want to turn that into a real gundeck. And... it gives me enough space to do a whole extra deck in the bottom, plus a bilge crawlspace underneath that.

I would really love to have one of those classical square, heart-shaped sterns. If so, it would need to start well above the waterline, i.e. on the current rearhull piece. Unfortunately, the current Maiden's stern is at too steep an angle, plus it's the worng texture.

So... how would you guys feel if I modified the current stern? The changes would only affect the rearhull piece (*not* the decks), and I would try to keep the deviation from the original to a minimum.

Here's the idea: instead of an almost 45 degree stern, have an almost horizontal undercut under the rearcastle (as can be seen on many of the real ship plans), followed by a less steeply angled stern with a different texture (diagonal planking). If the mood strikes me, I may add some portholes for sternchaser cannons on either side of the rudder as well.

Opinions? Would you like to have a square stern? Good idea, or would this diminish the value to the kitbash for you? Do you not want to deal with the hassle of reconfiguring your existing build?

Sounds like a good idea. No problem with existing ones; I'd just build a new one.

Any other opinions on this? I'm fairly sure Robby ain't the only one who already has a Maiden built...