Hey everyone,

On the issue of Kitbash files and the coming “Official Kitbash” downloads area, I have a few questions for you.

First of all I would like to say that I am really excited about what you are all doing with kitbashing. I think it’s an incredible secondary resource for all WorldWorks users and I can see it growing into something much larger. The truth of the matter is that I think it’s such a cool new feature of the coming site revision that it may actually become a download/bandwidth issue. I was initially going to offer all kitbash files for free but looking at this month’s bandwidth usage I think that the future of kitbashes might be a bit shaky. The popularity of your kitbash files is becoming a bit of an issue right out of the gate. There are a few alternatives here but I want your input on them before I take this any further.

- ‘Donations’ The least painful way to deal with added bandwidth costs might be to have an area of the site that specifically deals with a kitbash/bandwidth donation fund. The up side: Users aren’t obligated to pay but the option is there to them to donate what they can. The downside: its donation based. It’s sad but true that while there are some generous people out there, the majority are leachers. Donations would likely flatline in a very short period of time.

- ’$0.25’ That number is a bit arbitrary but perhaps we can offer kitbash downloads for some incredibly low pricepoint to help cover the bandwidth drain. Just enough to get the file down the pipe to your computer.

Perhaps we can ditch both options in the short term and see how things go. If I start taking a monstrous hit in the bandwidth department I can implement option#1 and then #2 if things get worse. Above all else I want you guys to be aware of the issues I’m facing and I want your input. What I don’t want happening is down the road having to resort to one of these options and everyone suddenly calling me nasty names.

I am currently creating a kitbash submissions guideline document for the site. This will cover the dos & don’ts of kitbashing and what will be an acceptable submission (pretty common sense stuff for the most part). I’m sure you guys will have thoughts to add to that document as well when it’s ready.

If you have any other thoughts and or possibly solutions please let me hear about them in this thread.

Thank you for your time and devotion to your craft!

Denny

Either option would be fine...I dont think that many of the regulars here would mind a small fee or donation for Kitbash files...Another option may be to offer a monthly/quaterly/annual subscription for downloads...that may appeal to some folks too.
Good to know that you are taking the time to stop potential problems before they appear

I certainly hope my kitbashes aren't costing you money . Personally I'm good either way. I'll defineatly donate if the option is there, and I don't mind paying little bits here and there for alternate parts. I havn't downloaded any of the offered kitbashes from Aleph13 to date, but he's been modifying sets I don't currently use (at least the ones that are currently available).

Right now my bandwidth is ok but the kitbash files are really quite popular, the problem will only really reveal itself once the server is loaded down with the store cart orders and downloads. I'm just preparing for the future

Is the bandwidth only affected by people downloading PDF's, or is something like my Matboard instructions affecting it too? I will donate more if that's the case.

My vote goes to option #2. Might as well charge a little more to keep the forums running too. After all, those kitbashes probably wouldn't be there if it wasn't for these forums.

Personally I think you should be making some profit from these kitbashes. After all, they're all based on your original designs, your textures, etc. If you're just going to be giving these away essentially at cost, eventually some people might decide to just download a bunch of kitbashes instead of paying for your own sets...

Donations are great for an occasional fund raiser, but you can't really rely on them for continuing funding. You may want to consider a fundraiser if and when you need a new server for teh forums or pictures though...

I'd go for #2 off the bat. If the official kitbash area is free for a while, it's going to feel a bit wierd when you all of a sudden put the price on there. The jump from "totally free" to "really cheap" is a pretty big jump psycologically, at least for me.

Yes, kitbashes are really nice when they're free, BUT you're taking the trouble to "officialize" them, pack them up, give the stamp of approval and provide the bandwidth. It'll still be possible to post unofficial kitbashes on the forum, if people post it on their own site and it's "unofficial". But offical always carries with it a stamp of approval and all of the files will be organized in one specific place. Me, I'd go to the store and buy, say, First light, and quickly pick up the resized bridge and elevator without batting an eye.

Ok, got a feeling for the problem, so how about including the cost of Official Kitbashes in the cost of business and slightly raising the price of the Sets to offset the cost of the downloads? The more mods or files for a set then a slightly higher offset. I mean the sets are pretty well costed now but don't include what is rapidly becoming a continuing product support structure.

I opt for option #2.

I think it depends on the kitbash. I was thinking about the mini-chunk last night, and about my Mallard class kitbash (which has fully built out files, which I was planning on offering to you to offer to others). I think you should charge for those; they are big, they are based off your IP, and they are virtually sets unto themselves.

Smaller kitbash files, that I'm not so sure about. Most you should be able to keep relatively small; charging a fee for those would be a bummer. Bandwitch is a concern, but in some ways, it should be considered a cost of doing business for any internet business. I don't say that unrealistically (I am the Director of Technology for an internet company) and I know that eats into your bottom line, and will have to be covered by the consumer at some point - but I'd rather see that priced into sets than into the individual kitbashes.

My .$02.

What happened to allowing a free kitbash download only to those who have been verified to own the originating set?

That has been what was discussed for quite some time now, and I think it has the best potential to drum up sales, and the least potential to aggrivate existing customers.

However, you need to still charge $.25 for someone who doesn't own the set, to recoup the costs of bandwidth. This will ensure that someone who just wants that one piece can have it, without needing to buy the whole set, and it puts off freeloaders.

Here's the basics of #3: If you've bought the set, you should be able to download derivative kitbashes for free. If you haven't, it'll only cost you a quarter.

I really believe this would address almost all of the concerns that have been voiced. I'd really like to know if The Auld Grump agrees with me on this (since he's against #2 in general, but #3 gives a way out).

As an aside, I'm for putting up a discreet PayPal donations link anyway. Those who feel you deserve more for what you make should have a way to give it.

I will be defining the term "kitbash" in the kitbash submissions guideline document. There are certain kitbash items that just wont work unless a charge is applied. Like you say, their too close to the core model sets in design and scope. I'm not worried about small add-on bashes.



I agree with you 100%, my only concern is that in a funny way I am competing with myself. When the WorldWorks store launches I want my prices and combo's to be a better deal than the other stores selling WorldWorks items. I'm really not comfortable raising prices on core model sets. I would much rather offer other unique items for next to nothing cost wise that are unique to the WorldWorks store (enter the kitbash). A low enough price point to cover administration (implementing the files) and extra bandwidth for user created files based on our sets. hmmm...here's another idea:

Option #3: Offer shopping rewards like "Kitbash bucks". Much like gift certificates these could be given away with the purchase of any of the core sets. The idea being that it prevents file leaching (from all those people out there who prefer to attain WorldWorks products through *cough* "unsupportive" sources). Otherwise Kitbash files are only a few cents each as standalone items. For the most part "kitbash bucks" would cover most peoples download needs and they've confirmed their support in the process. I'll have to figure out how to administrate this but I think it's possible.

The main focus in the coming months will be all about bringing old & new customers over to the WorldWorks store. The more support we can garner here at home base the better off WorldWorks will be down the road. We need to secure our future with all of you and maintain independence so that we can keep doing what we love to do most!



LOL...I think we posted at the same time with roughly the same thought Aleph13. I will definitely be looking into that possibility as well. The only problem with that method is that many of you have already purchased sets elsewhere so you would be screwed out of the "free" download.

Denny, have you considered using bit torrenent as a distribution method? It would require very little bandwidth on your end. The only snag I can think of is that it requires at least one person to act as a "seeder" for a given file. I imagine that this would only be an issue with older and more obscure kitbashes, and you could set aside a part of the forum for people to request that a file be seeded. Alternately, you could seed all of the files yourself and still use less bandwidth, since the more popular a file is, the more alternate sources are available.

Also, with option #2, you should check to make sure that you're not paying more in fees to creditcard companies than you make from a $.25 sell.

Here's my two cents.

1. Donationware: Not gonna work unless you set a hard floor. The vast majority of downloaders will pay as little as they can get away with, and if donations are optional, most will simply opt not to pay. Those who pay will usually be the most loyal regulars, and there usually aren't enough of those wonderful people to make donationware work.

2. Using BitTorrent-for some reason, I'm a little leery of using a filesharing system as a means of distribution. It's a little too close to the means that people use to illegally acquire paid content for free, and that sort of ambiguity may result in people thinking that while they're there, why not just look for the free stuff as well?

3. About restricting free content to verified owners of certain sets: That's why I stopped selling at RPGNow. It's a HUGE logistical pain in the neck to manage several different customer databases, and doing it manually is too time consuming. So I made my own storefront the only source of downloads, and that greatly simplified my life. Since I have one customer database, it's very easy to determine who owns what automatically. Because I also control the download system, I can keep a better eye on security and abuse as well.

4. Out of all the options presented, I like the Kitbash Bucks best. So I'd recommend going with that (you can also extend Kitbash Bucks to allow them to be used as 'store credit' with just a bit more scripting work!), or setting up kitbashes as mini-products available only to owners of specific sets. The download script I use for the Ambient Elements freebies checks to see if the logged in customer has a record of buying a specific product, and if so, it allows the download. If not, it simply doesn't allow the download. This is easier to do when you have full control over file distribution and a single, consolidated customer database.

Okay, that ended up being a bit more than two cents...

-Mel

Oooh, I'm all for KitbashBucks. I think it's a better idea to bundle them with sets and have them additionally purchaseable then the other mentioned options (fixed fee, free, limiting by kits). That way, it'll be just like a 'donation' if people want them separately (buying $5 worth or so), and if you bundle the Bucks with the kits, then people can mix and match kitbashes as they see fit. If you limit kitbashes to people who have a certain kit, even if they've bought them from the WW store, then they may not be able to use kitbash files meant for kits they don't own in kits they do own. (And cross pollination is one of the really cool things about kitbashing.)

My couple o' pennies.

I'm willing to pay a fixed cost to have access to a 'Kitbash' section of your web site, that just houses 'kitbashes'. something like $5 a year, whatever, to have access to all of the kitbashes available at the time. It would be a password protected log-in subscription section of your web site. or say $6, thats .50 a month, I'd pay as much as $10 a year to get the kitbashes aslong as there was new content being published there.

Oooo! I like the Kitbash Bucks idea!

Mel had some very good points to add to it, as well.

You could even give KBs (KBBs? KB$?) as smaller prizes for contests.

Change my vote to Denny's Option #3: Kitbash Bucks!

Well, couldn't one go through who has posted reviews where to see who has what? That way, only those that wrote reviews could get the free bashed content. At least that covers the early adopters. I dont think it would be that hard to go to each site that sells the download and get user names...of course, it wouldn't help the folks that bought the on-the-shelf version, but I'm not one of them so I'll just ignore that part.

Me also like 3 ... Only problem the ones that have nearly all what you have will be a bit disapointed if they get out of the game only to be "good" customers...For the new kits when your shop is done will work well...but think about a "compensation" for the old ones...A cheap cost is also efective...I'll only bought what I really need...Maybe the thing to go is give a 2nd tought in the 3 option...poolish it...and it will atract people to your shop is like an incentive for buying in your shop...

My opinion...