Awww, that is just freakin sick!

I can't belive the nerve of some people. I (personally) couldn't believe the amount / number of different peices you get in each set at the price. $15 isn't going to break anyone. Its more than worth it at twice the price!

And, Its not like these guys are the Microsoft Corporation, or some other faceless company where people who benifit from the profit of the company have little to do with its products. Just a few folks trying to make it on their own!

Just think about the time that went into making all these great things. Now, think about what your time is worth (I don't care if you are a professional or a kid mowing grass for cash). Do the math, how much would these be worth in your own time/money, if you could even make them yourselves. How would you like to work those (I don't know) Hundreds (?, Thousands?) of hours and not be paid, someone just come along and snatch it up.

Ya know, I have been holding off on a purchase or two just because of the season (soo much else to do). Won't place the order now (from work), but you folks will have my second purchase Tonight.

Keep up the great work!
And, to the Pirates out there: May the same happen to you!

Hi Denny

Sorry to hear things are so bad. I have bought every release and I don't share them - heck, it's not just my money but your livelihood, plus you have stuff in the works that I want! I've been waiting for Castleworks Ultimate for a long time, and as each of your releases becomes more beautiful I know the wait will be well worth it.

Do you have any way to track what kinds of releases have been the better sellers vs. what kinds of games people play? Is the fantasy genre the biggest winner, whereas recent releases may not fit into that scheme? When did the fall-off start to happen, with what product?

Also it would be great to have some statistics on products, like how many of each product sold, etc. At least you know those things and maybe can tailor your products to meet the perceived demands.

Sadly it may be that people are now aware of you and the piracy has followed. That's terrible. We all know you are a small business and are pursuing something you love very much, and we appreciate your dedication and faithfulness too. We want you to succeed, and it's too bad some people are sharing files illegally.

I am all with you to go with a more secure PDF system, although I usually edit your files myself to suit my tastes so I like to import the images into Photoshop (for example, I developed a system to let me easily design lots of unique houses in Villageworks in Photoshop, then print out the results, so that I can have one or two story structures of varying types without having more than one glue seam, other than the roof).

Another thing I was thinking is that users make lots of suggestions and everyone has something they want. One thing I constantly see is for smaller, more frequent releases. I know the Muse of Art is a harsh mistress, but even she must learn to understand some of our worldly realities. As releases have gotten bigger and better, it's apparent you are spending lots of time on them. I know people don't want to be nickle'd and dime'd for lots of packs and expansions, but maybe there's a way to work that out.

Something else is the vast amount of kinds of products people want - wow, what imagination! You have inspired a lot of that by your own creativity and vision.

Finally, I also wonder if people have figured out that ten or fifteen bucks on a download later translates to significant money being spent on card stock and ink, and that is hurting your sales. I buy all your stuff for future plans, but right now I'm not building a lot - but I sure as heck want everything you make!

You are doing great stuff Denny, and I know you hear that a lot. Of course when the sales don't match the praise, that doesn't put food on the table and a roof over your head. Your talking about closing your doors is scary for many of us. I, for one, will keep buying all of your beautiful sets, for the sheer wonder of your creativity and skill, and someday for all I will be able to do with them. I have grand plans, just not much time!

One more finally (LOL): can you get out those sheets of business cards, posters, flyers, and stuff for us to print and take to dealers, toy stores, etc? I would love to get more of the word out! I also think you're right that your pre-printed products will be a big boost - I'm even thinking of taking my files somewhere to have them printed, rather than using up my ink at home. Please keep the PDFs because being able to manipulate the files and print extra parts at home is part of the beauty of what you're doing.

Enough said! Have a good weekend, and keep plugging away - and thanks for trusting the WWG fan base community enough to tell us what's going on. We care and we want to help.

Or, it might just be that the last few sets have just been a little more specialized. Castles and dungeons are probably always going to be the main staples of gaming. As amazing as the last few sets have been, maybe there are just fewer people who could use them (I hadn't been too interested in The Maiden until I saw pictures, and then I had to have her just because she looked so cool).

Also, maybe the fantasy market is a little saturated. Perhaps your upcoming sci-fi set will bring some new people (though I realize that fantasy is the most popular genre overall).

I'm sure piracy exists, Denny, and I think the measures you've discussed should be pursued, but I'm curious: Are you assuming that the drop in sales is due to piracy, or is there other evidence that it is becoming more frequent?

Anyway, I hope you don't get too discouraged. There are lots of us who really appreciate what you do, and want you to succeed, and we'll keep supporting you however we can.

The above sentiments are true for me as well. I've bought every set up to Gothic Realms and the interior sets. I use these things for D&D and I just don't have a use for ships and sea-things. My campaign is mostly dungeon-crawl. I buy these sets for the items and props, since my floor-plans are done using a 2D mapping program.

The appeal of WW was easy-to build and cheap 3D props for my games. I keep coming to the forums and the site because I think the things you're doing are beautiful and interesting. Just not something I have a use for now.

I'll be skipping the wonderful Sea-Works, the sure to be exciting Siege works, and the Sci-Fi set. Castle-works will depend on if the props are useful. What I'm really waiting for are more interior works, people works, monster works, prop-packs, anything that I can use in my games - which are largely traditional dungeon-crawls and the like.

Until then, I'm content to re-use the excellent sets I have already bought. I guess my point was: I am a repeat and frequent visitor to the site and forum, but not a pirate. Just lurking, keeping up on your creative developments and waiting for stuff that I may be able to use.

Keep up the great work and good luck.

-Mike

I have purchased every of your major sets (except Chunky D.) so I am a loyal customer

You blame piracy... and yes there is piracy. Out of curiousity I tried to locate your last two sets: Seaworks and the Maiden (I have purchased both byetheway)... maybe my search skills are a bit rusted, but I didn't find them. I found every single other set you have released so far, but NOT the Seaworks sets. It seems that the people who habe bought it yet are (mostly) loayal supporters and that most of us do care about thing as intellectual property and your company.

It maybe that the dropping sales are not the byeproduct of piracy...


IMHO you should re-evaluate your marketing and distribution.
I believe in the vitues of quality, but even a sub-standard product will be bought, when the presence in the market is established.
One example from the field of plastic model kits: Everybody here in Germany knows Revell and buys there products, even if there are many companies that sell better products for the same or sometimes fewer money... Why? It's because you can get the crappy Revell ones in every department store, even at some giftshops or gas stations... they dominate the market because of their omni-presence.

Just my 2 cents.

Denny - please, PLEASE don't switch to the monstrocity that is DTRPG, with its DRM technology!!

I strongly hope you've already done your homework and are aware of the huge storm of protest DTRPG caused on various rpg forums. In case you haven't, here are some relevant links from EN World:





From what I've heard, there are a number of very heated threads on rpg.net that are several times larger than these, but I tend to find a better signal/noise ratio on EN World.

Some tidbits from the various threads: (1) a indicated that 86% of EN World users will be staying away from DriveThruRPG, (2) several people started a boycot of publishers using DTRPG, going as far as to promise no longer to buy *any* of their work, including print products (just to show you how strongly some people feel about this), (3) Malhavoc Press, which was one of the existing PDF publishers who switched to DTRPG in the very beginning, eventually caved in to customer demand and .

If you were to switch to DTRPG and DRM, I am afraid you will be losing a lot of loyal customers. Including myself! Not just out of ideological reasons, but DRM would also seriously hampers normal usage of you product. For example, printing through a print shop will be either impossible, or become a real PITA. People wanting to print at work (check that poll you did not too long ago!) would probably be prevented from doing so (because they'd have to DRM-register their work computer). And a large percentage of users simply cannot use the required Acrobat 6.0, including everyone using Linux (that's why you'd be losing me as a customer, for example).

Let me just end with two more really good links:

- : a talk by Cory Doctorow to Microsoft's Research Group just last month. The summary:
1. DRM systems don't work
2. DRM systems are bad for society
3. DRM systems are bad for business
4. DRM systems are bad for artists
5. DRM is a bad business-move for MSFT

- : an excellent article by Brad Wardell on how his own company decided to deal with copy protection and piracy. Denny, I think this one is MUST-READ for your situation, because I think the same idea could directly apply to WWG! The subtitle pretty much says it all: "Make being your customer more convenient than being a pirate".

However it also sounds like sales have hit enough of a slump that Denny is talking about folding his tent.

What I am very much afraid of is Denny packing it in. And I don't see a lot of alternatives.

DRM would get rid of many customers. (Unfortunately including me, unless you release CDs of the product - I would be willing to wait a couple of weeks in order to purchase a CD rather than a DRM protected PDF.)

Pirates get rid of many customers. (I would like to thump them, there are

Going with the print/CD versions might increase the short term revenue to the point where new product can be sustained. (I hope.)

Print versions will increase the cost of the product to, and I have a preference for the PDFs, but including the CDs mitigates this somewhat. I hope the experiment is successful. (And wish that the first attempt had been with the Maiden, she is the most likely candidate for my purchase in printed form.)

Coming out with quick 'mini' products might sell enough of the smaller sets to make them profitable in the time before piracy becomes a serious issue. (And by 'mini' I mean 1-5 pages tops, with a delay of no more than 2 or three weeks between products - perhaps not a realistic goal.)

The canary trap would at least say who was swiping the product in order to copy it, but then comes the expense of prosecution. And it relies quite a bit on another party - in this case RPGNow, unless Dennis wishes to open his own online storefront, and take on all the hassles therof. And sooner or later some lackwit will remove the text... hopefully after enough time has passed to realize a sufficient profit.

I know a few people who use Kazaa, I have avoided asking about whether they have taken any World Works for fear that they will then do so. (For what it is worth the only people that I know locally to definitely have World Works material paid for it. )

Something else to be aware of is that the RPG industry as a whole is undergoing a slump, my FLGS for example has not gotten in any RPG material aside from special orders for four weeks now.

Subscription service with the people with subscriptions receiving the product 2-3 weeks before the public release, perhaps with a very small number of extras. (I would sign up for this one! ) This would perhaps give you enough profit to continue production, with the sales of product on RPGNow merely a nice sideline.

A 'Buyers Card' the prepurchase of products that can be chosen at a later date, unlike the subscription allowing people to skip releases that hold no interest for them.

Auctions of unique or at least limited edition material. This has the advantage of a limited pool of possible pirates, making it easier to find out who. The disadvantage of course is that the auction would have to clear enough to cover the creation of the items... Not a very realistic approach.

A final, possibly stupid idea is to have a fund drive - not perhaps a realistic idea, as you are a for profit organization. (My experience with fund drives is entirely with nonprofits.) But I know that E. N. World has done so, as have several web comics. (Something Positive springs to mind.)

The Auld Grump, who hopes that there is a viable solution that does not entail DRMs (and my dropping World Works), but who does not see one...

Not to sound cynical, but does anyone here really believe that piracy can be stopped?

Every single copy protection scheme cooked uo in the last decade or so failed. Even companies or industries that invest million dollars a day to prevent piracy have failed.

Does Denny stand a chance to stop this? No.
Does he have a chance to minimize his losses? Yes, but only if he achieves to carve out a niche in this market that is big enough to support himself, his family his employees AND to cope with any loss generated by piracy.

In the long run it doesn't make a difference whether Worldworks goes DRM or stay PDF - but it makes a difference whether you are operating your venture at semi-pro or professional level.

Not to sound to hard, but as long as WW's customer base can fit into a small bus this operation is in dire circumstances... we are a subgroup(papermodelers) of a subgroup (gamers)... try at least to get more gamers onto the bus

I think your right. The play should not be to get money out of those who pirate, you can't.

Instead, find more honest souls who love the work and are willing to pay for it.

In this day an age, if ONE person pirates your goods, ALL pirates who want it will find it and copy it. You can't really ever control your market to that extent.

Unfortunately theft is becoming more endemic in society. My wife works in retail and the theft that she sees keeps getting worse and worse. There are far too many people who feel that theft is okay if they can get away with it. (Pretty much the same mentality that so many people have with illegal music and now illegal movie downloads.) I overheard a conversation among some professional career people a number of years ago in which I was stunned to hear that they felt it was okay to to take money from someone's wallet they found, even though there as enough information in the wallet to find its owner who lived in another state.

If a case can be made that WW is losing a lot of business due to piracy of their products I would be willing to tolerate an attempt to use a DRM system to see if it helps, providing the customer's ability to use what they pay for is also protected. I have tried DTRPG's PDF products, mostly the free downloads, and had trouble with the first two which I downloaded on one of my computers but couldn't read on my other. I re-activated my DRM with Adobe on the first computer, which I shouldn't have had to do since I have only one user ID and password. After that all further downloads worked on both computers but the problem with the first two downloads still exists.

In trying to resolve the problem I tried Adobe's idea of DRM customer support, their E-Book Reader forum, and was disconcerted with the number of people having problems and the lack of information from Adobe representatives. (DTRPG's FAQ actually seemed better than Adobe's but didn't address my problem). The number of people who have problems with the Acrobat DRM (including information listed in the links provide by others earlier in this thread), Adobe's lack of support for DRM problems, and general experience with Acrobat lead me to believe that they have the same problem as Micro$oft -- they have the corner on the market and have become too lazy to take care of the flaws in their product in a timely manner. Will it work with my next system update or if I move to another computer, will it work with the next Acrobat Reader upgrade? Probably, but i don't have much confidence in Adobe given what I've seen of their DRM so far. This makes me very reluctant to invest much in DRM products.

Steve Jackson Games is going to produce a PDF line and, having evaluated the pros and cons, decided that it caused more problems than it solved:
"Will the PDFs you sell be user-limited with some sort of digital rights management scheme?" No, they won't. We understand this is a hot issue right now because another company just opened a PDF store with encoded, "protected" PDFs that won't even work on some computers. We looked into that whole issue, and decided that copy protection would create far more trouble for our users than it would save for us. The l33t g00bs will break it anyway, and it annoys the honest people." http://www.sjgames.com/ill/archives.html?m=June&y=2004

It would seem to me that if DRM is going to work companies and customers need to put enough pressure on Adobe to make their system more robust and error-free. In the meantime, companies will have to develop a fairly tolerant method of helping customers to be able to use what they paid for. My understanding from what I last read is that DTRPG basically allows one download and then the customer is pretty much on their own should the DRM not work as it should. To me, this is not acceptable.

Thieves bother me a lot more than spammers and I hope that WW and others can find viable ways to deal with the problem.

Though I will keep my hopes up for the subscription service!

The Auld Grump, who knows that he will buy most of this stuff anyway...

That may happen sooner than you think Grump. I'm seriously looking into opening my own store here at WorldWorks.

Especially with the maiden you have a unique product. Someone else will build a similar product, but for once you have the position of being the ONLY source for an object, instead of one of the best. You will loose that niche faster than I think you realize, and it will cost you a lot in potential revenue. I'd get the maiden into gaming stores as fast as possible. I'd get it into every convention from here to anywhere. Offer a free product of their choice to anyone who shows pictures to you of the maiden on display at a convention, with a link to where to download it. But frankly we live in an instant gratification society. People at conventions are much more likely to buy pre printed product. So I'd really get the maiden out there asap in print. It will likely do much better than the dungeons. I say this because most gamers have at one point in time or another tried making "paper dungeons". Due to the low quality of most c "paper" models, they are soured to the idea. None of us ever tried to bulid a card stock ship..... There is not really any re education to do.