HarborMaster was the kit that made me decide to give this hobby a try, so more like that! It looks good while having a structure that's actually conducive to using in a game. Minis can stand on/around/under it, etc. (Lots of terrain looks great, but you can't really "use" it in wargaming cause there's nowhere to stand minis, it becomes a pretty square of impassable space.)

Essentially a way to cover an entire 4'x4' table in a town layout of buildings in the style of harbormaster would be my dream product Base tiles that can be rearranged are more appealing than a fixed play mat.

As more of a wargamer than RPGer, interiors don't really matter to me. Most of the games I play have an abstract "That floor is occupied by a unit" approach to interiors, so I think an 'exterior only' version of the kits for a couple dollars less would be cool.

Obviously I am only personally interested in full 3D kits and generally a chunkier style. e.g., the style of crenelations on WatchTower were worth every minute of extra effort to me over a more simple 2.5D cut out crenelation.

Personally I'd also like the option for more High Fantasy and SteamPunk styled builds, in addition or in place of historical-looking medieval/renaissance type scenery.

Ghenghis_Ska, cool idea but I'd rather see that handled as a series of fantasy themed "districts" sets, several people have already mentioned district sets for things like a market district, the docks, or slums so it would be going right along with the idea already.

Taking the elf/tree city for example one release could be the organic looking district like you first mention then a second that leans even more towards the natural theme and further from the norm (like perhaps the tree city itself). Together the first set serves as a borderline where the traditional city gives way in style to the more natural elven methds. Set three could be additional props and such to add to those specificly nature themed districts and aids for visitors (don't know what but it sounded good).

You can have a pure classical elf city hidden in the trees using just those sets (with or without the first) or add them into Himmelviel proper to make a multi culture metropolis (and I'd like to see some houses built dirrectly into the trunks of ancient trees as well as in the tree tops )

Richard

Hi Denny (and all),

Well, I am newish to WWG, but I have been card modeling for a while. I like the look of the current Himmelveil products and plan to get them when I am done with the Hellworks cathedral.



In my mind, based on what is out so far, Himmelveil has the potential to be one of the first wholly-card-stocked cities (if not the first). The buildings should tell a story, and maybe in time a campaign setting/series of integrated adventures could be written to reflect this. I am interested in seeing anything that adds to the flavor and depth of the city.

I think it would be great to develop this city and release the overall map. It could be "interactive" on the site, at least, and you could show progress as pieces are released by providing links on this map to the products.

Also, a "terrain" or "roads" release for the entire city would be neat, as well as bases that mesh well (and are perhaps interlocking), a sewer system, etc. The list is endless!



Releases could be handled in multiple ways. Working from the micro to the macro, you could keep releasing the individual locales as, presumably, not everyone would want every piece. This makes it easy for people to pick and choose what they want to use. Next, you could group products by type/ward/district/layer, etc, and release that as a bundle. Finally, when all is said and done, you could release the entire city as a kit. Pricing would have to scale, obviously, but I would say there would should be a monetary incentive to buy the larger kits (a bit of a price break vs. buying the pieces individually).



This is tough to answer - maybe work with a "core" set and build from there, adding more "unique" features and kitbashes as time goes on.



Personally, I use 1" grid, but I can see the potential need for all.



Both. Definitely both. Unique feautres make the place non-generic, but you need the generic stuff for the base and to make the unique stuff stand out.



I *love* the chunky stuff, and have used the WWG stuff as well as some in similar style from other publishers. However, as I explore the non-chunky products, I am coming to respect and enjoy them just as much. I suppose it comes down to each release, although if you are going with a theme, maybe you should stick with one and go with it throughout.



Tangible pieces are nice, but I prefer the PDFs for sure. Perhaps the entire city on a CD/DVD when it is complete, or preprinted mats for the ground which has the layout of the city on it already (in pieces, of course - one mat would probably be way too big).

Thanks gang! Keep em comin, we're listening.

Himmelveil: Great Expectations

*What do you want Himmelveil to be? What should it encompass? What areas are you most interested in seeing?
Himmelveil should be the fantasy brand line, much like Mayhem for the modern line. It should encompass a large fantasy medieval city and then branch out from there. I think having a strong thematic tie will enhance the sets value. I would like to see a seedy dock ward with warehouses and taverns. I would love to see a temple district like the Street of the gods in Lankhmar. City walls. Sewers. Canals. Fountains. Dank alleys and bright bazaars. I'd like a lot.

How would you like to see releases handled (size, price)?

Keep the sets small and nimble for a constant release schedule. The smaller sets could be gathered together into a large compilation with some added items (props, standees, inserts) Maybe the compilations could be themed as seperate wards or districts of the city.
$10 -$15 price for the small releases. With a tight focus, like a Thoumont's type with a couple street and prop variations.
$15 -$20 price for a more generic Streets of Himmelveil (like SoMayhem) or City Walls and Gates.
$25-$30 for an entire District set. Everything to make a specific ward. Very generic no special buildings (sold seperately) Walls, streets, a couple of varieties of building with a similar architectural theme. Props wagons, stalls

What order would you like to see things released?

All of it now! I would build off of the Dockmaster for a sea ward or a trade ward off of Thoumont's. A streets of Himmelveil might be the best first release tho.

What format do you want or need in your games (gridless, 1”, 1.5”, hex)?

1" is a must to build off of Pathfinder converts. Gridless seems like a no brainer. 1.5' and hex are up to your customer base. I don't use them myself.

How modular? (everything compatible with everything else or character structures which may or may not be totally modular with other sets).

I say start fresh. As a rebranding of the fantasy line make Himmelveil compatible only unto itself. Kitbashing will ease the other lines in. I like the infinite variety that can be achieved with sets so make it generically modular. The specific buildings should be the same scale but not necessarily able to mix and match.

What’s your favorite build mode out of all the various things we’ve experimented with in the past? (free floating walls, place as you play, 2.5-D, masterboard, Chunky style)

I like Masterboard but Place-as-you-Play seems like a good format too.

Would you like to see tangible versions of this product and if so what format would you enjoy most (poster prints, vinyl mats, Cdroms, preprints)?

Nix the CD's. Pre-prints and precuts, as mentioned above would give outstanding Brick and Mortar appeal. Vinyl mats seem antithetical the Infinite builds approach but with such gorgeous artwork already produced it might be a good sideline.

Thanks Denny. I have been *twitch* waiting for Himmel*twitch* for a while. I am blown away with your recent releases and hope Himmelveil exceeds my imagination.

I’ll throw in my 0.02.

The stuff that I buy from WWG are things that I cannot scratch build myself or would too inconvenient if not impossible to build with another medium. That’s why I like Paul’s Harbor Master, very cool, quirky, and fanciful. I can see it as the kick-off to a whole water based Venician themed city. I always thought that the premise of Himmelveil was supposed to be the eclectic epicenter of a fantasy environment, not just another Swiss chalet plaster & beam city. I want fantasy, not Europe (with all due respect to our friends across the pond.)

If you can push the project to be similar to what you are doing with the Piazo stuff, I’ll be most happy, and might actually buy something besides a non-fantasy kit!

What do you want Himmelveil to be? What should it encompass? What areas are you most interested in seeing?

Honestly I think of the old city of Sanctuary. As to what it should encompass.....well....I don't think you actually need to define that. The beauty of a gigantic old city is that you can always add another "quarter" or section.

What am I interested in....I think WWG has covered the general fantasy terrain already. Most of the early fantasy sets and CWU I'm sure could easily be incorporated so you don't need to cover the same territory over again. I would think in terms of specialty shops. Blacksmith, fletcher, marketplace have all been mentioned previously. How about large releases like guild buildings?

Steampunk on the order of the novel Perdition Station by China Mienville would certainly get my attention. Very decrepit and dark.


* How would you like to see releases handled (size, price)?

I think you could do a mixed bag here. Releases like the mayhem line seem to work. Large structures released on their own, otherwise like BOM.

* What format do you want or need in your games (gridless, 1”, 1.5”, hex)?

Gridless. Even when I use mageknight I go gridless.

* How modular? (everything compatible with everything else or character structures which may or may not be totally modular with other sets).

Don't be overly concerned here. Look at a real cities built on their ancient predecessors. A virtual riot of styles spanning 100's of years. Even medieval cities didn't follow a definite style.

* What’s your favorite build mode out of all the various things we’ve experimented with in the past? (free floating walls, place as you play, 2.5-D, masterboard, Chunky style)

I build using foamcoare walls so really I'm after the textures. I do like the chunky dungeon idea for dungeon settings and think this is an impressive path but impractical outside that realm. I haven't played with the place as you play idea, but I imagine it is similiar to a structured version of warhammer quest, which I loved.

* Would you like to see tangible versions of this product and if so what format would you enjoy most (poster prints, vinyl mats, Cdroms, preprints)?

Not really. I do a great deal of bashing and texture mixing. The digital format is best for me.

Hope this helps.

I was thinking more about what "fantasy" means. As in, how it would differ from the real world. I came across some maps done over on the Dunjinni forums and this one stood out:


http://www.dundjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=10670&PN=9&TPN=1

I think the crooked walls really added some flavor to the map. That is what I am hoping for with Himmelveil. Flavor that is original and screams fantasy.

Can you imagine living in something like that?! All of those curved, slanted, and just out of joint walls and rooms .... it'd push you right over the edge ... elf or whatever you were.

But it does look organic, and ... yeah, definitely fits with fantasy. Nice map. I think I'd prefer a compromise between old europe and hobbit huts or something.

I don't mean that it needs to match that, just that it should exude the feel of fantasy much like that does.

I agree with walls leaning out from subsiding foundations or wear over time, and multi-tiered buildings overhanging the levels below, but crooked walls don't seem to make much sense. Nowadays you would see an architect going for that kind of this for a contemporary look, but I'm not sure it'd work well for fantasy.

That said, nook and crannies are always useful in a fantasy setting... gotta have somewhere for the assassins and thieves to lurk

Arabin

Here's a couple of things that you might find interesting to look at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13748448@N04/3371253180/

and for something even more time consuming:

http://gidian-gelaende.de/Material_HP/Wolfgang/ImperialeStadt/album/index.html


I kind of like the idea of winding streets and wall-to-wall houses.
Since VillageWorks already has houses with a square footprint, why not create some houses that have 45 or even 60 degree angles, sort of like the angled corner sections from ArenaWorks. That would give it much of an more curved, organic feel without having to come up with curvy walls for individual houses; something cardstock isn't that good at (although I wouldn't put it past WWG to prove me wrong on that one).

Maybe some rooftop options that would let players have a chase up on the thieves' highway would be nice, too, as well as a change in street elevation.

Just a few ideas running around in my head...

Wow! What scale are those models in? They look great. What company makes them? They are facinating.

The first link shows a medieval city in 1:140 scale made by the Czech paper model designer Richard Vyškovský for the company ABC. It's a book and it's out of print as far as I know, although there might be some Czech retailers that still have some copies.
You can find much more pictures here.

The second link shows scratchbuild scenery. You can find more (very impressive) stuff made by the same guy here.

Greetings,
Zephalo

Someone linked to the scratch builders morthiem awhile back. Fantastic work.

Thank you so much for the links. I am going to explore them completely

Nice! I was wondering where those other pics were. I remember those models being available on a German modeling site some time ago. The same company also had a bunch of other castles as well.

I just enjoyed the way these towns were laid out: Building clusters, very close together, to create sort of canyonlike effect for the streets. A little tricky to move minis in, but way cool-looking and much easier to get lost in (gameplay-wise, I mean). The thing that makes these kinds of models so impressive visually is the fact that they are built "up", in other words, there's significant elevation, not just a couple of buildings on a flat surface. The eye is drawn to that kind of thing. (I suspect Curt Voiles knows this, just by looking at some of his builds.)
I'd love for Himmelveil to have that kind of elevation, multiple levels of play, stairs and slopes. It adds so much to the visual imagery; and when you combine that with the quality of textures that Denny & Co. routinely put out, you can bet that the final product(s) will blow anything else out of the water.

Then again, I'm just waiting to see what's being cooked up at WWG. My wallet's ready, my hard drive's hungry and my printer's loaded.

Yeah his Mortheim build is just amazing. If we can get close to that I'll be happy

You can already do multiple elevations. Hinterlands, Skull Cove, and Mars Station all give you pieces to make the ground different Heights. And All the buildings I can think of give you the option to add however many stories you wish.

all i can say about those pics is WOW

Would it be worthwhile to craft blocks of housing/buildings that are set structures of "unusual" shape. Meaning a block of three or four buildings all wedged together with hanging windows, crooked beams and sloped/sagging roof-lines. By having them as a set whole unit the buildings could be shaped to look more fragile than if they were one on one.

Thoughts?


Lord Abaddon of Wormwood

* What do you want Himmelveil to be? What should it encompass? What areas are you most interested in seeing?

I would like Himmelveil to be whatever it needs to be, be it a Gothic city similar in style to Ravenloft, or steam punk, or anything in between

* How would you like to see releases handled (size, price)?

I for one would like to the releases similar to those of Urban Mayhem,

* What order would you like to see things released?

I would like to larger areas coming first so that we can flesh out the city and cover the most common areas for encounters first.

* What format do you want or need in your games (gridless, 1”, 1.5”, hex)?

For me gridless or 1" grids are best as I play D&D, and WHFB

* How modular? (everything compatible with everything else or character structures which may or may not be totally modular with other sets).

I would like to see it be modular with the majority of the existing fantasy sets

* What’s your favorite build mode out of all the various things we’ve experimented with in the past? (free floating walls, place as you play, 2.5-D, masterboard, Chunky style)

I have too little experience with Worldworks products to say however something similar to Urban Mayhem looks like it would be useful

* Would you like to see tangible versions of this product and if so what format would you enjoy most (poster prints, vinyl mats, Cdroms, preprints)?

Modular mats with basic footprints of some generic buildings could be useful and would serve as useful proxies to show boundaries until new buildings could be built. Perhaps they could be accompanied by a cd with the relevant pdf to allow people to buy the sets in places other than the internet

Got this from a DM friend of mine. Quality's not that great, but it sort of shows what I mean by elevation.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13748448@N04/3376961622/

and

http://www.flickr.com/photos/13748448@N04/3376961432/

He's just been using web freebies for now, but you can see the idea of a hillside village layout. (Although his was waay too steep and he ended up having to cut some rubber wedges for our minis so they wouldn't slide down the incline).
I realize that a ground slope is not ideal for miniatures, but a tiered or terraced approach might be a cool thing to have in Himmelveil, e.g. elevated temples, risers, retaining walls with stairs, cascading steps/fountains (like the millrace), that sort of thing. Kind of like Hinterlands or Skull cove, but more regular in design, with city-type textures.

Then again, I'm probably just dreaming. That Gidian terrain site didn't help...

Looking at the scratchbuilt hirsty stuff linked above got me thinking.

If WWG could bring a three dimensional landscape to the cityscape, Himmelveil would be a giant leap forwards in tabletop modeling. Hills and cut backs that truly elevate the city to 3D. I don't even want to hazard the difficulties of the geometry of creating tiered landscape, but I think the benefits would be amazing. Incorporating sewer sytems into the city builds and building that shining (or smoggy fog enshrouded) city on the hill will make Himmelveil a fantastic step forward.

Realizing that this thread is fantastic fodder for the competition to pick over...I can't say much (I'm sure they're jotting down notes furiously...lol). All that I can say is that you are all collectively very close to the direction this will likely take.

After walking into a GW store for the first time in over 5 years the other day and having a go at the War of the Ring Demo I walked out of there feeling there was something missing. It took all my journey home to work out what that was - the Terrain on the tables - no depth in colour & texture, no feeling of sense of age or that the objects has been in place since the dawn of time. Then I realised that I have been working with some of the best terrain on the market (please note this is not a kiss ass post), that when I trim out another building or prop I have just pieced together another object that has a wealth of history built into it. This is something that standard resin or plastic has not yet achieved.

This is why I am excited about the planning of this city - the ability to take part in it's crafting (even only from a wish list kind of way) knowing that the end results will look so much better than any full timer in a red shirt could do. Knowing that my city will have breathe of life running through it's flith infested streets, something that no drybrush could do.


Denny let me just add I can not wait for this and I do hope we get to see it very soon.


Lord Abaddon of Wormwood

Hey thanks Lord_A! I only hope we can get close to that expectation. I'd really like it to have that kind of scope and feel.

I think all this awesome feedback and enthusiasm from the community deserves an early preview of things to come

Ooooh...thats pretty.

That is quite pretty isn't it?

Thanks for the preview Denny!

Very cool previews.





@vivolator
hinterlands can easily make that same kind of elevations. Better yet would be to do the terrace levels in the preview pic for your paths and then simply add the steep slopes to areas players can't use.