Has anyone seen the new "deluxe" edition of the competitor's city product? They've just posted it to RPGNow/DriveThruRPG and it is absolutely amazing how blatant a ripoff of TerrainLinx it is.

They use toothpicks to join tiles together, and the textures of the streets look amazingly like Himmelveil's streets, right down to the grates over the gutters.

I know that they have made a habit out of plagiarizing WWG's products, but I can't believe the audacity of this release. They are like that movie studio that produced "Transmorphers" and "Snakes on a Train".

It's shameless.

Shawn

I was at first taken aback by some of the pointed comments in the Promotional literature. But after a few moments I realized that what this is...

is a huge form of flattery. I mean imitation is the greatest form of flattery an artist could receive(I think) aside from $$. Obviously others are (and have been)impressed enough to watch quietly and very closely mimic current trends.

As long as your being followed and imitated... you know who's winning the race?

We all are. Competition is what pushes innovation. However questionably the content literature provided is loaded...

Kudos.

~F

Well I agree competition pushes innovation. Certainly WW is always striving to improve not only its art but build methods.

However this market is really small. If people come and slap off a cheaper copy of WW's work that could just as easily push WW out of business.

agree'd.

Just trying to put a positive spin on it. My initial remarks and comments were
not something I could post.

I bet if we sit them side by side and I'm sure most of us could tell you who'd be the one that's chosen the most. (Price points are the same, too). Which makes it (imo) even more of a no brainer.

And my bets are on the one that doesn't take the low road in its advertising blurbs. (this one really smacks of angst and a bit of impudence. Both of which are stinky colognes)

~F

I really want to see the commercials for those.

WWG is the cream of the crop when it comes to card stock and the texture art PERIOD.

I got all bent about this when I first saw the "competition"? I was so angry and being such a hard head I posted the dumb link and was like look at this crap!? wtF?!! Let's form a mob and kneecap em.... er I mean SUE... and thanks to another poster the thread got locked before I even realized I should say sorry to Denny and WWG for the original post.

Sorry Denny and company.

It's our own words and actions that dictate who we are.

I buy from WWG as they are the best of the best. That is my action to support WWG and NOT support a knock-off.

There are two components to keeping a company like WWG going.

1) those that make up the business/their products (Denny & Crew)

2) those that use the products from WWG (Us)

I would only be pointing out the obvious by listing all of the things that WWG does to support itself and provide us with the products/support we want.

However, it is us, the consumers, who have a choice to support or not to support--either though direct purchase or through how we choose to spread the word of our experiences with WWG or to do some advertising or whatever.

As long as both parts support each other, I can only see WWG continuing forward in the future as the leader of Cardstock Terrain.

Just my $.02

I would at least send some legal notice to them (sure, it will probably be discarded and ingored... or they make back off?) Then I would also hit them at their sponsors; DriveThru RPG and whoever else carries their knock-off products. Inform the distributors and sponsors how they are underhanded and borderline criminal, back up your point of view with facts, and hope they side with you and drop them like a bad hobbit!

Something we, as supporters, can do is keep promoting WWGs. Anytime you see knock offs like that be sure to leave a comment on their website or do whatever you can to direct potential customers to the true source of outstanding products, great customer support, and all for the same price.

Let's just say that it was predicted that they would do it - nothing new there.


Lord Abaddon of Wormwood

Toothpicks? Really? That seems like such a fiddly, stop-gap, and ultimately poor solution for repeated use. If they want to compete with WWG they're going to need to come up with something better.

I thought the snipe at cutting machines was pretty stupid too. Denny never said they were required and are merely provided for those who are involved enough in the hobby to have one. (or their wives have one for other craft uses already)

I'm disappointed. But what is most disappointing is not so much by that this sort of uninformed slander takes place, but rather that it is allowed to continue unchecked by the moderators.

Are people not checking the "competitor's" product history? Toothpicks have been used by them for a long time now, and the 'grates over the gutters' was a feature in their original basic city set that came out a year ago. Before that, the similar grates featured in their other dungeon sets. Also, the "competitor" started posting images from their city Deluxe set well before WWG posted their preview shots a week ago. Both companies developed their products simultaneously. And in any case, the street textures were a feature of the "competitor's" basic city set, a year ago.

Honestly people, take a trip to Europe and photograph the streets of any medieval city. There is bound to be similarity when people are attempting to recreate the feel of a medieval urban setting. The Himmelveil line looks like it's going to be a fantastic set of products. WWG and the "competitor" both make excellent products and there are millions of gamers and therefore millions of potential customers out there. There is plenty of room for everyone to thrive. I, like many gamers, use products from several companies. I don't see the point of blind devotion to one or the other company. And I certainly don't see the point of this defensive, reactionary, slanderous behavior. And to the moderators, with all due respect, I would urge you not allow it to continue.

Cheers,

You got to admit though that the line regarding the use of 'automated cutting machines' can only really be construed as pointing in this direction

There are images of SoH back from when the set was being first done in 2004 -5. The loss of that set happen due to a hardware meltdown but there was a few images still out there. The street grates were one of these images. Predating anything Tom has done on DS.

As for preview shots - have been floating on here for months if not years. As for toothpicks, well that's just sad. Ebbles was using Hairpins well before FD so that was "borrowed too"

End of the day we are not posting in FD forum about this poor copy but here in WWG domain. I am personal glad that you and WereWolf8 like the WWG products and have posted so - being mods on FD site and stating this to the general public is a nice thing to do.

As for FD and Toms stuff in general - not bad but to me it's just lacking texture depth ie richness and actual build enjoyment; there is nothing new there.

Shame he is intent on slaving away on copies instead of breaking new ground.


Good to see you here Afet


Lord Abaddon of Wormwood

I disagree, and you´ll notice that Tom has already changed the reference so as to avoid anyone misconstruing it. Again, to say that a reference to "the use of 'automated cutting machines' can only really be construed as pointing in this direction" is simply reactionary and defensive. He was not the least bit interested in taking pokes at anyone.

His concern is that potential new customers may be dissuaded from trying out paper modeling by the idea that they need to invest hundreds of dollars on a machine to properly enjoy the hobby. He wants to reassure potential paper crafters that they can do it all with a basic set of tools. The truth is he is going to make paper cutter plots for many of his products available for free, but not as part of the product. He wants to make the hobby appear as accessible as possible, which is good for all of us.

Cheers,

I usually don't post responses to these kinds of threads, but the blatent lack of action by the moderators to allow this to sort of slander to continue has prompted me to do so. I like both FDG & WWG products, therefore I feel I have right to say something here, as do you all.

There are only so many types of fantasy streets, grates or whatever and inevitably there are going to be similarities in design & texture on occasion, so I really don't see the issue here other than someone trying to slander and put down another.

I personaaly think that both Dragonshire & Himmelveil are great looking products and I will probably get them both eventually.

I am a moderator on the FDG boards mainly because the owner of FDG and I became friends at Gen Con a few years back, but I would not sit by and watch or listen to anyone on his forums bad mouth WWG or any other company, including Tom. So like Afet, I would like to here from the moderators on this.

Denny, I am a big fan of your work and Tom's, so do I really have to choose one or the other? I would have posted more often in these forums had I felt that I wouldn't get roasted for commenting and saying anything good about a competitor.

These are the kind of threads that will drive customers away.

So go ahead, flame me all you want. I can take it, but remember, there are those who can't and won't.

Why mention it at all, then, is my point. Nobody from WWG to Ebbles to One Monk have said you have to have a machine to use their products, simply that they are now compatible *if you do*. Otherwise it's still plain old cardstock modelling, doable with scissors, craft knife etc. If it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, and especially since Denny has worked hard to make it so Himmelveil *is* machine compatible, it seems odd to bring it up 'out of the blue'. Even moreso now it sounds like Tom IS going to be making his stuff cutting machine compatible.....fwiw I just took a look at the revised blurb for the set and it simply reads better now imho since taking out the machine references. YMMV

Note I haven't said I would never buy Tom's work, in fact I have his star shuttle Resilience (iirc) model on my rpgnow wish list right now with a view to using it to populate my (still mostly conceptual at this point) starport for a possible Star Wars Saga game (although I wish it had an interior!). I've also looked at the Egyptian expansion for the dungeon sets as I loooove hieroglyphs, and I've toyed with getting some Dragonshire stuff simply for the variety.

Anyway, I expect many people will use both sets of models simply to increase their options, but you can see how it might look when Himmelveil has been publicly being developed as long as it has and a competing product covering basically the same ground is released a day before.

No flames here, in fact Mel Ebbles and Jim from One Monk for example are on here often and they have their own cardstock lines too. Perhaps not quite as closely in competition with WWG (;)) but they still hang out; I'm glad you guys did too

Sorry for the delay, I was out with the family taking a much needed breather. This one had legs and I will indeed lock it down. These threads aren’t great for anyone really. Let’s all breath though ok? When you have such a strong sense of community and ownership, there's a natural tendency to be protective of it, which is healthy but sometimes it can get out of hand.

Before I lock this down though, I think it’s important (given some of the points brought up) to clear up any misconceptions and reflect on some WWG history. I say none of this to further inflame the situation; just to clarify time-line a bit and my take on why there might be such a caustic reaction to this, for better or for worse from the community…

If you do a forum search on the term “Streets of Himmelveil” you’ll find 819 matching threads discussing this project back to 2004. Many of these tend to be pretty dense and they chart the course of a product that almost was only to come crashing down at the 80% mark due to a nasty hardware failure…cue violins, start the twitching. I was pretty devastated when it fell apart so I put it to the side until I could stand to look at it once more.

Ok, so some history:

The first image of a SOH street tile was posted somewhere around late 2005. I have the remaining scan of it here:


More was shown in early 2006 of the sewers (Look there’s Moosey!):


After the crash and subsequent loss, I took a breather to focus on other genres. We came back to Himmelveil and development in 2007. This spawned a series of design experiments with a new modularity standard. It was originally intended for a strict sewer setting but spawned a complete build system.

The first reboot preview of SOH was leaked on March 3rd 2009 in the “Himmelveil Great Expectations” thread (Page 3) http://www.worldworksgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7077&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlig_images/tht=himmelveil&start=0 .
This included a tile sample with gutters, “natural” grids and various elements unique to the visual style of the setting. Much of what was to come was discussed in that thread.

Additional previews of our works-in-progress have been spilling out continually since March in the “What’s Coming” threads.

For the record, I would much prefer it if we could all just get along. I've said it many times in the past; there is absolutely no reason for us to eat eachother. There’s so much we can all achieve in this market, we just have to be smart about it.

THREAD CLOSED.