*UPCOMING* TERRACLIPS UNVEILED!!!

moofrank · **Posted:** 07-17-2010, 07:39 PM

So, I'm in. This looks like exactly the sort of thing I've been looking for, and I'm conveniently starting to flirt with Malifaux.

1. Nothing in the promos really looks all that steampunk, or western, or Victorian. So any of the accessories help change that somewhat?

2. Can you tell us how many and what size sheets are in the box to give us an idea how much material is there? $50 seems AWFULLY cheap as far as that sort of things goes.

3. When does it ship? Everything I've read says it can be ordered August 5.

TheAuldGrump · **Posted:** 07-17-2010, 07:51 PM

Qpony wrote:

I feel like I should clarify my earlier post: I am operating under the assumption that terrain clips will take off and be extremely successful. Based on the price point (which I believe is not too high to push hobbyists away) is why I believe it will be successful. Considering the fixed and variable costs of building terrainlinx products I don't see terrain clips being much more expensive. In fact depending on if you factor in time costs terrain clips will be VASTLY cheaper.

Put it another way: Let's say I bought (and I should say I did)

3 PDFs of sets for $52
A Silhouette SD for $300
2 replacement blades for $20
6 250 110lb cardstock reams for $60
10 pieces of black foamcore for $80
1 craft knife for $7
2 replacement blades for $14
1 cutting board for $10
1 continuous ink system for my printer for $80

I've now spent $613. I could buy three of each of the terrain clip sets and three of a new set that would come out for the same price.

Now I know the large costs above are fixed costs but keep this in mind: if I was buying three of each of the terrain clips sets that means you are getting:

126 Double sided 6x6 inch floor tiles
252 Double sided 3x3 inch floor tiles
216 6" walls
216 3" walls
210 double sided roof pieces
27 single width stairs
9 double width stairs
27 ladders
264 hand rail sections
216 balconies
210 roofs

This means you will have to print out 1437 pages of 110lb carstock and have the robo cutter chew through all those pages. This is also assuming that you are not buying the terrainlinx floors. Keep in mind that you still have to edge, glue and cut out foamcore for all the above pieces which take A LOT of time (I wouldn't see myself doing it before six months assuming an hour a day).

I'd like to point out that the above paper costs are estimates but are pretty accurate (roofs might be a little more pages then I estimated).

I know there's a lot of numbers but my point is this: if you are starting from scratch there is no reason to buy terrain linx over terrain clips unless you really like cutting it out yourself. And if you've already invested a lot of time in terrainlinx it seems to me like wasted time because TerrainLinx and Terrain Clips are incompatible. I think regular consumers who just want terrain to play with would buy terrain clips, making Terrain clips World Works Games bread and butter moving forward.

Link to my work above:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25688/Terrainlinx%20paper%20costs.xls or
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/25688/Terrainlinx%20paper%20costs.xlsx

Hmmm, I seem to be paying half or less what you sank into the hobby:

Robo Cutter SD - $120 (Humongous preChristmas sale - this is the only reason that I even have the Silhouette

).
6 250 count packages of cardstock - $30 (Walmart)
Craft knife - $1. (Dollar Tree).
Blades - came with knife.
Cutting board - ? Less than $5, at any rate. (Part of a big piece of plywood that was cut up, so price is iffy - the big piece cost $8.)
Black Foamcore was half price at Jo-Ann fabrics, and cost about 60% as much to start with - $25 for 10 sheets. But given that the TLX tiles completely cover the foamcore you can use white, which is cheaper.

I have not purchased replacement blades for the SD yet, and have a color laser for printing.

Ummm, you paid way too much for your stuff.

The Auld Grump

Qpony · **Posted:** 07-17-2010, 07:59 PM

One of the unfortunate realities of living in Manhattan I'm afraid. The craftrobo does cost $300 from their site though

tiles · **Posted:** 07-17-2010, 08:03 PM

First, congratulations to denny and all others who worked on producing this game changing product. I'm sure this will be the "must see to believe" booth at Gencon. Prepare yourselves for sci-fi, modern, boosters (Gump), expantions, and endless requests to start 2 days ago. You will NOT be able to keep these on the shelves.

I was intrduced to WWG this april. I started my RELATIONSHIP with the purchase of sewers and streets. I spent countless hours cutting everything by hand, and in truth, not just anyone is built for this kind of project. However I enjoyed it!

To the point, last night we played on a four foot by five foot, compleatly origional terrain that incluced ramps,stairs,sewer levels, markets, battle arena, town sqr, inn, hand built fountain, and a dock level. We have been playing D&D for twentyfive years and nothing comes close to what this system has done to our game. Our group has only played one published adventure in those years, and writing this campain was a wonderfull challenge. Containing the storyline and battles in a few city blocks forced me to think in new and uncharted ways for me. Having the flexibility to build those city blocks to my custom vision just rocks. hard.

In truth, I don't think I need any more streets or sewers. (Got 96 floor tiles!) But you can expect me to purchase EVERY SINGLE fantasy product you produce from this point forward. Including THX.

Finally, love the cut out doors! (look closely guys!) very cool.

TheAuldGrump · **Posted:** 07-17-2010, 08:21 PM

Qpony wrote:

One of the unfortunate realities of living in Manhattan I'm afraid. The craftrobo does cost $300 from their site though

I ordered pretty near everything online, most did not even charge shipping. Craft-e Corner lists the SD at $230, but I got it from them at a lot less on Black Friday.

I'd say that I saved money, but really, if it hadn't been so cheap then I might never have bought it. As is, I got one of the last ones they had at the time.

The Auld Grump

Qpony · **Posted:** 07-17-2010, 08:44 PM

Just to state something about my post above: the point of my post was not to get into a deep discussion of costs and where to purchase foamcore, supplies, etc. My points were really:

1) The costs for buying pre-printed stuff is not that high
2) I believe pre-printed stuff will be highly successful
2) If I (and I suspect many others) knew that this was coming and that it was incompatible with Terrain Linx we wouldn't have wasted the money and (for me more importantly) the huge amount of time on Terrain Linx

TheAuldGrump · **Posted:** 07-17-2010, 08:56 PM

Or decided, like I did, that they really prefer TLX. With the kind of investment that both of us have made it seems like the wiser choice.

Then again, I was doing cardstock modeling before D&D was a gleam in the eye of Gygax. The TerraClips look nice, but I will stick with the system that I have sunk costs in. An easy pick for me.

The Auld Grump

Kane · **Posted:** 07-17-2010, 09:45 PM

Lets not forget the cost of ink. At the cheapest, I get a set for $20 that lasts about 300 pages or so.

stephengroy · **Posted:** 07-17-2010, 10:17 PM

Gamesmith Denny wrote:

Nope, you're all good there! Wyrd is our partner and we want you to lavish their website with money

We won't be handling direct sales at the WWG site but we will of course be heavily promoting the products in various ways.

Heck, I first heard of Malifaux on these boards, and have eagerly awaited the news, but alas! I was hoping for something a little more Western, but this certainly works for urban encounters. I am hoping we'll see faction symbols incorporated into the sets as well. The apples are a great touch!

the nothas · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 02:11 AM

I came here for a squiz as some of the sponsors of our online community in Australia - wargamerau.com, sell Malifaux and were promoting the Gencon package that Wyrd have put together.

I was only vaguely aware of cardstock scenery, but must say I was blown away by the apparent quality of the WWG stuff.

The Terraclips system looks great and appears to lend itself to Malifaux skirmish style gaming very well.

A couple of queries...

Most Malifaux scenarios require 3'x3' of gaming area, is that possible to acheive with one pack, or will we require multiples?

Is there a plan to do maybe an expansion for each set so that the 3x3 is possible?

Will the Terraclips stuff be available through our Australian Malifaux distributors, or can our FLGS carry it independently of Malifaux?

How long until you succumb to customer demand and do a Bayou set

?

Cheers

DeltaIce · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 06:54 AM

Well, I suspect they'll sellout the Terraclips sets at Gencon before the event is even over ... unless they made a huge production run. It would be interesting as well to tally up the pre-orders from distributors, and shop owners.

If all goes well, where would there be time to do anything but Terraclips set developement? The pressure to expand that product line would be enormous ... and very profitable. We'll just all wait and see. I hope it is a tremendous success! It certainly looks like it will be.

llyrghmnghyll · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 07:14 AM

Qpony wrote:

I feel like I should clarify my earlier post: I am operating under the assumption that terrain clips will take off and be extremely successful. Based on the price point (which I believe is not too high to push hobbyists away) is why I believe it will be successful. Considering the fixed and variable costs of building terrainlinx products I don't see terrain clips being much more expensive. In fact depending on if you factor in time costs terrain clips will be VASTLY cheaper.

(deleted Numbers)

I know there's a lot of numbers but my point is this: if you are starting from scratch there is no reason to buy terrain linx over terrain clips unless you really like cutting it out yourself. And if you've already invested a lot of time in terrainlinx it seems to me like wasted time because TerrainLinx and Terrain Clips are incompatible. I think regular consumers who just want terrain to play with would buy terrain clips, making Terrain clips World Works Games bread and butter moving forward.

I agree wholeheartedly with this analysis. ( I also have to ask if you counted in the 40-80 pages of posts that you won't have to print and cut).

Terraclips is far cheaper than Terrain linx for me, and for a few other cardstock modelers I know. As I said earlier right now I'm lucky to get a single page laser printed for 45 cents ( i prefer how laser looks so I won't go back to Inkjet). So you can add the cost of a $400 (retail) printer to the costs for me, plus roughly $100 for the extra cartridge to print all those pages.

My best estimate is that I'll pay around 20 cents a printed page with my own home printer. There are a few online print services which could probably match that price.

even so, at roughly 20Cents per page my time investment is still huge.

my estimate of the amount of time it takes me to make some of the stuff is (no robo cutter yet, and that's a large investment for me because I went looking for one on the cheap and didn't find anything less than): around 30 minutes for a tile (including tabs) 8 minutes for a wall, 3 minutes for a post connector. Given what you get in a single $50 package I'm saving around 40-80 hours of work. a craft robo admittedly might cut that down to 10-15 hours, but I'd never take a job that paid as little as $1.67-$2.50/hour.

I could be wrong, but I do not see how this could possibly not be the future of WWG.

My biggest fear is that I won't have the $150 saved up to buy one of each set on august 5th, because I don't think they'll stay on shelves long. I really hope the production run is in the 5-10k range, but I somehow doubt that.

sdavies2720 · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 07:42 AM

Qpony wrote:

...I am operating under the assumption that terrain clips will take off and be extremely successful. Based on the price point (which I believe is not too high to push hobbyists away) is why I believe it will be successful. ...

I'm sure Denny is hoping the same thing. I'm starting to believe that it's true as well.

Which brings me to the main thing that worries me about WWG offering this: Resources. Denny's already said that he doesn't plan to use the same textures for both sets (although he did say that he would be evaluating everything as they see how the products sell and evolve). Don't get me wrong, I'll probably buy TC to try out, and I wish WWG only good.

But right now, I believe that WWG is producing fewer products than this market will support. I assume that the bottle neck is somewhere in the development-QA stage of the product, not in the packaging for production. From that I assume that finding artists who can deliver quality results at reasonable pay levels is the biggest constraint.

So, if TerrainClips takes off, WWG's bottleneck is likely to get worse. Unless:

* TerrainClips is so profitable that WWG can increase wages (possible, but probable only to the level to alleviate but not remove the talent bottleneck)

* WWG can get more productivity out of current staff time. I think the simplest way to get that is to use the same textures for both lines. But maybe other creative efficiencies will emerge.

Whichever way I go with this (staying with TLX or switching to TC), I'm not happy with a bottleneck -- there will always be products 'on the other side' that I will want access to, and that will cause me angst.

But, Denny's at the helm, and is clearly looking at (and producing product to address) the opportunities and challenges of his business. The rest of us are going to have to be patient and see how things develop.

If nothing else, this forum has taught me patience.

Steve

Aikidoka · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 08:19 AM

Hi guys! Do you think will be possible to order to an european distributor? Because to buy tangible things in USA we have to pay taxs...
:cry:

I love your works

Gamesmith Denny · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 09:11 AM

Lots of questions asked but let me focus on the most common ones;

* Distribution: The list of current Wyrd distributors can be found here http://wyrd-games.net/buywyrd . Many available distributors have European coverage (particularly E-Figures). If interested retailers have distributors which they work through, they are more than welcome to bug them and have them contact Wyrd direct for distribution terms (industry standard terms): http://wyrd-games.net/contact

* Terrain Contents and size: Please view the first post in this thread for complete info regarding coverage and set contents. When considering absolute table coverage values, its important to understand that TerraClips is a 3D, Multi-level system, so your absolute table coverage is dependent on how high you build your layout.

* Future TerraClips releases: Its been noted a few times but potential future releases depend entirely on market support. If the support is there, WWG will have no issues filling designers shoes to accommodate any additional workload. There are a number of talented designers waiting in the wings here, so its not really for lack of manpower but lack of resources. We just need that little push up the hill which we hope TerraClips will give us.

Oh and I just want to take a minute to offer our sincere thanks for all the kind words of support so far! The reaction here and elsewhere has been nothing short of amazing. Great things to come gang!

SeattleGamer · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 09:18 AM

sdavies2720 wrote:

I'm not happy with a bottleneck -- there will always be products 'on the other side' that I will want access to, and that will cause me angst.

(SNIP)

If nothing else, this forum has taught me patience.

Rest assured ... patience is indeed the key.

WWG have always been "slow" to deliver the next kit, whatever that may be. But that's because we see the release of a certain set, and think "WOW! Way cool! Now if they release a companion set that covers this other aspect ..." and then it's a year before a set that covers that comes out.

Artistry takes time. Great artistry can seem to take forever. WWG textures are the best in the business. They have always been worth the wait.

Once you see how very cool a certain terrain set is, you start to think of other applications, and other sets you want. And then the waiting game begins.

Those wanting more such sets will feel the bottleneck is the Linx sets. Those who want to continue with their Linx will feel that Terraclips is the bottleneck. And that is no different than my wanting more Streets of Mayhem, and feeling that Himmelveil was the bottleneck.

Denny and crew will always have COOL+X products they could work on, and COOL-X time to work on them. So patience is the key.

I predict Terraclips will do very well. I think this line has a bright future I own over 30 WWG sets, but never got as much use out of any of them as I had hoped (for the time invested in the making). I haven't picked up a few more sets that fit with my overall plans, because of lack of time. So figure that is 3-4 sets at $15 each I didn't buy.

I plan to order double sets of all three Clips, and three extra packs of clips. A $360 order, on August 5th. As soon as the items appear in the web store. Because there is no designing, planning, printing, and then building. There is just punching out and clipping together. A huge time saver.

TerrorTigr · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 01:28 PM

One thing we (especially in "elsewhere") can do is go to our local game stores and ask about the product.

"Have you heard about the new Wyrd/Malifaux terrain coming out? The one from WorldWorksGames? That looks so awesome? When will I be able to buy it here?"

That'd be bound to increase interest and perhaps, the stores will contact their distributors once we show them the preview and they (hopefully) see how amazing the product is.

Spread the word!

Gamesmith Denny · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 02:10 PM

TerrorTigr wrote:

One thing we (especially in "elsewhere") can do is go to our local game stores and ask about the product.

"Have you heard about the new Wyrd/Malifaux terrain coming out? The one from WorldWorksGames? That looks so awesome? When will I be able to buy it here?"

That'd be bound to increase interest and perhaps, the stores will contact their distributors once we show them the preview and they (hopefully) see how amazing the product is.

Spread the word!

I couldn't have said it better myself

Thraug · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 03:36 PM

Fully assembled layout pics please.
At least 1 of each set, pretty please?
=)

Gamesmith Denny · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 03:38 PM

You're going to have to wait for reports from GenCon for pictures

TheAuldGrump · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 05:29 PM

Qpony wrote:

This is also assuming that you are not buying the terrainlinx floors.

This is actually the only part of your post that I agree with - both the TLX Mounts and TerraClips are tangible products, with a larger continuing cost than straight up TLX.

Some folks will be satisfied with a single set of each of the TerraClips sets, but others will want to fill a table.

Much the same is true with the Mounts, though the Mounts are, of course, optional.

If I were choosing between Mounts only TLX builds, and the TerraClips then the choice would be a good deal less cut and dried for me.

The Auld Grump

Zenguy · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 09:20 PM

One thing I don't understand here: Why not use the same textures for both lines?

Really, what's going to happen?
- Someone will pirate the TLX textures? There's a successful market here already, even with piracy.
- Someone will pirate the TCP textures? They could do that off the physical product just by using any halfway decent scanner.

Why double the creative effort?
Why reduce the options for customers?
Why not let the creative process feed both lines?

The only reason I can think is that Wyrd Miniatures must be preventing this. Which fits their current sales model, but severely limits WWG's.

Tyler Tinsley · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 09:24 PM

Zenguy wrote:

One thing I don't understand here: Why not use the same textures for both lines?

while not exactly the same the streets and sewer stuff looks familiar.

MelEbbles · **Posted:** 07-18-2010, 10:44 PM

Zenguy wrote:

One thing I don't understand here: Why not use the same textures for both lines?

Okay, I'll explain.

The buildings are all-new textures--I've watched them progress from start to finish. Denny seriously upped his texturing game with those, and I mean seriously upped his texturing game. When he was done and needed to do Streets, he decided to touch up and improve Streets to the same standard as the buildings. Matt, in turn, upped HIS game to bring Sewers up to the same level.

With the buildings, there were no old textures to reuse anyway, and the quality differential would have been noticeable if Denny and Matt hadn't gone back and improved the older textures.

Does that clear it up for you?

-Mel

DeltaIce · **Posted:** 07-19-2010, 01:05 AM

MelEbbles wrote:

Zenguy wrote:

One thing I don't understand here: Why not use the same textures for both lines?

Okay, I'll explain.

The buildings are all-new textures--I've watched them progress from start to finish. Denny seriously upped his texturing game with those, and I mean seriously upped his texturing game. When he was done and needed to do Streets, he decided to touch up and improve Streets to the same standard as the buildings. Matt, in turn, upped HIS game to bring Sewers up to the same level.

With the buildings, there were no old textures to reuse anyway, and the quality differential would have been noticeable if Denny and Matt hadn't gone back and improved the older textures.

Does that clear it up for you?

-Mel

Hmmm ... this may sound absurd, but just how much super texturing is needed for these models? Much of the super fine detail can't be seen unless its blown-up. It's like how much chrome do you need on a jeep. That said, I do like the textures if the DPI is increased because then I can blow them up for the larger scales I like to work in. 300 dpi is the best for the range I use.

Anyway, its just an outsider's opinion. I'm sure Denny and Matt don't waste their time for nothing. If they feel they need to ratchet something up then they do. After all they do know the business. All I know is what suits me.

I'm totally for both the TLX and TC lines. Both serve different sectors of the market. An easy compatibility would have been nice, but you can't have everything your way. I certainly do not regret my TLX purchases. They are after all a renewable and bash-able resource.

MelEbbles · **Posted:** 07-19-2010, 03:28 AM

DeltaIce wrote:

Hmmm ... this may sound absurd, but just how much super texturing is needed for these models? Much of the super fine detail can't be seen unless its blown-up. It's like how much chrome do you need on a jeep.

The magnitude of the opportunity Terraclips presented merited the extra effort to make sure it was the very best possible texturing work that the artists were capable of. With opportunities this big, putting your best foot forward is a no-brainer.

Quote:

Anyway, its just an outsider's opinion. I'm sure Denny and Matt don't waste their time for nothing. If they feel they need to ratchet something up then they do. After all they do know the business. All I know is what suits me.

Well, if they dialed things down to a "who cares, it's good enough" level, I'm pretty sure they'd be lynched for lowering their standards. I mean, the thing WWG is most renowned for is their texturing. That's their signature element, so they're not going to skimp on it.

-Mel

Zenguy · **Posted:** 07-19-2010, 03:46 AM

I'm still missing something:

If the texturing is this great, why not make it available in TLX as well?

Shinohara · **Posted:** 07-19-2010, 03:57 AM

DeltaIce wrote:

Hmmm ... this may sound absurd, but just how much super texturing is needed for these models? Much of the super fine detail can't be seen unless its blown-up. It's like how much chrome do you need on a jeep. That said, I do like the textures if the DPI is increased because then I can blow them up for the larger scales I like to work in. 300 dpi is the best for the range I use.

The issue isn't so much resolution or DPI as it is detailing.
For example, compare this snippet from the Gothic Realms sewers:

and compare it to this snippet from the Himmelveil Canals

They're small crops but still show what I'm pointing out.
In the Gothic Realms image there's really not a lot of detail, the water is basically some blue colors swirled and twisted together to give the impression of a noisy surface. You can tell it's supposed to be water but it only vaguely resembles the real thing. It's also relatively quick and easy to create, paint in rough areas with the general colors you want, and then swirl it around into wavey patterns with a smear brush in photoshop or using a distortion filter.
Now look at the Canals image, there's ripples of the water surface with reflected highlights playing across them in much the way real water would. If you look at a wider view you can see that the bottom of the canal is vaguely visible, obscured by depth and with patterns of darker and lighter areas as you get from the water refracting light. You can also see different depths in the water along the edge of the canal. All this takes a lot more effort, you have to paint individual layers of the surface under the water, the light playing across it, the ripples above and the way they distort everything beneath, and then the lights reflecting off it. And then on top of that there's the leaves scattered across the water to give the subtle grid.
It's all a lot more difficult, a lot more time consuming, and adds up to a much more realistic looking image than the older sets. And Gothic Realms is actually one of the more detailed older sets. Now crank this level of detailing up even more for the texturing that's going in to the TerraClips sets so that they're a truely gorgeous looking physical product once they get out onto store shelves.
The 300DPI TLX, and presumably TerraClips is produced at is more than enough for continous tone (non-line art) images like these.
Ultimately both lines have strengths and weaknesses, both seem to strike different balances between time and flexibility with costs being roughly equal though TLX does have ways to cut down costs for those on a rather tight budget.

DeltaIce · **Posted:** 07-19-2010, 04:54 AM

I don't dispute that the newer textures are great. I just wonder if there isn't a point when the size of the model itself negates a super plus texture, since the fine details are much harder to see the smaller the model is.

As for 'dialing down' textures for 'good enough for me' people, that is not something I'd expect from any company. My 'lower standards' if you want to think of it that way is what enables me to genuinely appreciate the creative efforts of other 3D terrain companies. Some may not have gorgeous textures, but their paper engineering is remarkable. Some make models where the level of texture is fine for that item and doesn't require more.

I also know trash when I see it. I don't buy it. So if I have bought a model or set it does have to pass certain criteria ... none of which are 'low'.

llyrghmnghyll · **Posted:** 07-19-2010, 06:28 AM

DeltaIce wrote:

I don't dispute that the newer textures are great. I just wonder if there isn't a point when the size of the model itself negates a super plus texture, since the fine details are much harder to see the smaller the model is.

WWG are perfectionists. their level of detail has always been astounding.

(warning the following is mostly conjecture based on how their company has appeared to grow)

However I would expect them to step it up for a product like this. up til now their investment in their work has required basically non-industrial investment, and what investment they've done has likely been based on long term growth not based on individual production runs. furthermore their product requires a fairly minimal capital investment from purchasers ( I would likely guess that a real percentage of people who've bought their product have never completed a build - I know of at least two people who fit that category). the cost of obtaining a TLX product is the same for me as buying a pack of heroclix and their older products are less than a box of large Star wars minis or D&D minis.

So when they switch their sales model from minimal capital investment on their part and minimal capital investment for purchasers to moderate capital investment on their part and moderate capital investment for purchasers you would expect a shift in their labor investment on their part. It's one of only 3 things they can do to insure the sale of their product once production and price point have been established
1) Advertise
2) increase quality
3) increase availability

(by moderate capital investment I'm guessing roughly the cost of a lousy to nicer house - depending on the length of their production run)

Anyway Advertising in this industry is mostly done through trade shows which is what Gencon is good for. Availability is established by their partnership with Wyrd Miniatures. Quality is established by stepping up texture quality.

It's not a matter so much of whether or not it was strictly speaking necessary as it's good insurance.

UPCOMING TERRACLIPS UNVEILED!!!

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