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WorldWorksGames :: View topic - New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!
WorldWorksGames
http://www.worldworksgames.com/forum/

New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!
http://www.worldworksgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=62&t=10650
Page 1 of 1

Author:  MelEbbles [ 12-06-2011, 03:48 AM ]
Post subject:  New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Introduction

This is an experimental approach to handling cutfiles, which would allow them to be submitted as kitbashes.

In the beginning

In late 2008, when I was running Ebbles Miniatures, I got my hands on a second-generation Graphtec Craft ROBO as a development aid. Initially, it was a very consumer-unfriendly machine in many respects, and it took a few months of experimentation before I found a way to make it easy for the end user to just print and cut a commercial model. After that, I started bundling ROBO Master GSD files with my new releases, and Denny brought me onboard during the TerrainLinX beta to integrate machine-cutting support into TLX products. After that, other companies started to do the same thing with their own products.

I mentioned that only to make one very specific point: at this time, ROBO Master was the only free and vendor-neutral controller software available, and I did not want the end user to have to purchase an aftermarket cutting software to make use of their machines. ROBO Master came in the box, supported all cutters based upon the Craft ROBO hardware (which covered the Silhouette-1, 2 generations of Wishblade, and 2 generations of Craft ROBO at this point), and that made it the ideal lowest common denominator.

However, it had one big problem--it was very rudimentary and simple. It had several flaws, amongst which was the fact that any embedded image data was stored as an uncompressed bitmap. What this means in plain English is that adding a 300dpi image to a ROBO Master document resulted in a 25MB file, and made the application unstable to boot. This, for reasons which I hope are obvious, made doing the printing and cutting from ROBO Master a nonstarter.

This is why I added registration marks to the PDF in the beginning--it was the only way to keep file sizes down and support machine cutting. I replaced my old 2px thick 7.5x10 check frame (used to check for scaling, skew, and positioning problems during troubleshooting) with 4 corner registration marks, and went to a full 8.5 x 11 frame size with the cutting area correctly positioned where ROBO Master would expect to find it. Okay, now you know why things were set up the way they were in the first place.

Silhouette Studio

Last year, Silhouette USA discontinued support for ROBO Master in an effort to encourage more users to use their Silhouette Studio application. We resisted the changeover because they didn't pay any attention to NOT invalidating existing content, and Studio was therefore pretty broken from our perspective at first. They have gradually improved it and crossed off a lot of our gripes, but it still didn't reach a level of acceptable usability until somewhere around Version 2. By the time Version 2.2 rolled around, it was importing and cutting my old GSDs without making me fantasize about casting the whole development team in a for-real snuff film sequel to the Final Destination series. At this point, I was no longer uncomfortable with the idea of officially supporting it as a cutting file format here. I mention this only to explain why I insisted we stick with GSD files for as long as we did.

The Silhouette Cameo

In 2011, Silhouette USA discontinued all older machines in favor of their new Cameo. One of the things it does differently is using a completely different registration mark format, and it doesn't play very nicely with the older registration mark setup. This meant that all of our existing PDFs with registration marks were either not usable or only marginally usable with the Cameo. Some folks suggested workarounds like coloring in one of the registration marks, but here's the thing: we don't like workarounds. We want stuff to work. You open file, you click button, the happymaking machine does its thing. We're not going to tell you to bust out a Sharpie and scribble over one of the marks because that just didn't seem like something we should be telling people to do.

Kitbash Complications

The fact we had to embed the registration marks in the PDFs is exactly what made allowing the sharing of cutfiles problematic in the first place. In many cases, older products were NOT formatted with machine cutting in mind, because they were released before machine cutting was even a thing, so not all of them were sized to fit within nor positioned optimally within the safe cutting area. This meant we couldn't just release the cutting path data as free files, as the graphical assets would have to be rearranged, resized, and registration marks added, which would amount to basically giving away the entire product for free.

At this time, we also did NOT have the shiny new storefront that we do today. Before Denny finally talked me into coding a new storefront for him, WWG was using a horrible, horrible open source shopping cart that forced him to make some unpleasant choices where kitbashes were concerned. Originally, he wanted them to be free to owners of the parent products, but it just wasn't possible to make the old cart work like that, so he had to make do with the sub-optimal solution of charging for the kitbashes regardless of ownership. So, the old kitbash policy was built around those limitations, and it just wasn't feasible to accept complete product conversions like a full set of cutfiles. If he had micropriced them, people would just buy the cutfile version and save money. If he charged full price, cutter owners who bought the originals would feel screwed. So, impasse, and we just didn't allow it for the sake of sanity.

Support complications

We also couldn't just go back and "add layers" or "stamp new marks on PDFs" or any of the solutions people normally come with. For starters, we have thousands of pages of content, and we don't want to have to do it all over again from scratch every time Silhouette USA decides to discontinue support for older machines or changes their regmark format. Instead, we would rather manage our assets in a machine-agnostic way and completely decouple hand cutting from machine cutting so there will be no interdependency between different file formats.

Where we are today

Bringing this historic tour to a close, I was aware of the problems the Cameo posed as soon as the complaints started appearing here last month. This brought our internal cutfile development to a halt while we considered our options. Three things happened in December to speed up the resolution timetable: Denny put on a sale earlier than I thought he would, I scrambled to release the next batch of Ebbles Labs sets in time for the sale so people wouldn't get sore if they were released after the sale, and a customer took me to task for not including registration marks in the stuff that predated my acquisition of a craft cutter. So, instead of working quietly on the issue in the back office and releasing a new set of guidelines later on in the month like we originally planned to, we're just going to do it early, and out in the open, right here.

The basic idea

Because we now have the ability to fairly distribute kitbashes (owners of the parent product get them free, non-owners pay the a la carte price), and Silhouette Studio does not suffer from the same problems with file size that ROBO Master files do, and Studio itself automatically prints the correct type of registration marks based on whatever machine you have plugged into your computer, we now have the practical (albeit theoretical) ability to support complete, self-contained print-and-cut files as kitbash submissions. To that end, I have spent the past few days kitbashing one of my recent Ebbles Labs releases, the Field Camp.

Here are the fruits of my labor: http://www.worldworksgames.com/store/in ... roduct=199

I'm planning to develop a full tutorial that makes it as simple as possible to create a valid cutfile kitbash submission. Before I do that, however, it needs testing. I would like anyone who already owns the Field Camp and a machine cutter to download their free kitbash and let me know how it works for them. The big difference between this and the old cutfile implementation is that the graphics are embedded in the cutfiles, so you will be doing your printing and cutting directly from Silhouette Studio.

In particular, I'm interested in whether or not it works with the Cameo. If I got it right, I can immediately move on to the tutorial, the new submission guidelines, and start working on my other sets.

You should be able to just go to the cutting settings pane and click "Send to Silhouette". From there, it should walk you through printing, loading, regmark scanning, and cutting. Do exactly that and nothing else--I want to see how it works for you out of the box, as it were.

Thanks in advance!

Author:  oldschooldm [ 12-06-2011, 09:59 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

This is totally AWESOME news! Thanks for moving on this so quickly - and providing a complete background and context for the decisions.

I know this is a test - but when can we cutfile makers start submitting cutbashes?
Should we use the Field Camp as a submission template?

Author:  MelEbbles [ 12-06-2011, 11:14 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Cutfile kitbashes aren't going to be accepted until after the new guidelines have been fleshed out and the official tutorial published, and an official template will also be provided. The template and tutorial will be taken care of once I have been assured that my prototypical files do work for other people besides me.

In particular, I want to make sure they work on older European hardware (A4 is narrower than US Letter, so the cutting margins on older Craft ROBOs are narrower on the A4 model) as well as the new Cameo (which none of the staff here own).

I wouldn't start on any ambitious cutfile kitbashes if I were any of you guys just yet--the size of older WWG products is large enough that working in teams would be easier, and everyone has to operate out of the exact same playbook to make sure quality stays consistent regardless of who submitted content. That requires an official tutorial and templates, which I will prepare myself, and much of the content of both depends on how the testing turns out. In addition to that, we have to hash out the submission guidelines, and that'll likely require some back-and-forth with aspiring kitbashers.

Author:  anvil [ 12-06-2011, 02:48 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

I tested with the "fieldshelter tan" studio file on 110lb card stock. After updating Studio to latest version, I followed your instructions above and printed the file through Studio. I loaded it up and used the auto feature to find registration marks and then cut the file. Everything worked just fine with only a tiny fraction of misalignment in a few places, nothing unusual from past experience. I've had my Robo for a year or two now, and this is the first time I haven't had to manually read the registration marks. This is my first time using Studio.

So Thumbs Up from me. If this makes cutfiles easier to make, I may just get around to building some of those older sets I have. Thanks Mel.

Author:  oldschooldm [ 12-06-2011, 06:30 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

I did something a little different - I wanted to use this model for a "native" hut for a quadrupedal species in a fantasy campaign I'm co-authoring. So I kitbashed the dirt texture onto the model and punched a hole in the side for an opening. I think I like it!




Author:  MelEbbles [ 12-07-2011, 04:40 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Anvil: Thanks for testing! By slight misalignment, do you mean those annoying occasions where the cut is off just enough to leave a thin sliver of white next to the line? I hate when that happens--it's because the machine has a resolution of 0.1mm, and the paths are all quantized to that resolution at the time of cutting.

It's not a major problem when people are, like, cutting out shapes and stuff that they drew in Studio, especially when using a millimeter grid, but anything else that wasn't cleanly gridded ends up being quantized. For some things like word shapes or lace patterns, it's not so noticeable, but for print and cut items like paper models, the quantization sometimes manifests itself in the off-by-a-hair cuts and small circles or regular polygons coming out like the machine is possessed by the spirit of Salvador Dali.

What machine did you use, by the way? I'm compiling a little list of machines that passed the test.

oldschooldm: Not to dismiss your rather neat conversion, but to keep things focused on the topic for everyone else, I was hoping people would test the files as they were provided, since that'd speed things up and ensure that I didn't miss anything. :)

Author:  oldschooldm [ 12-07-2011, 08:40 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!


Author:  MelEbbles [ 12-07-2011, 01:02 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

People using A4 paper will run into problems, looks like. That reminds me, the other reason I wanted to keep the regmarks inside the PDFs is because Acrobat Reader automatically centers pages, while ROBO Master and Silhouette Studio both don't handle the same thing nicely at all.

I'll need to make one additional modification to the cutfiles in the future: grouping everything on the page together. Studio has a very irritating quirk where if you attempt to center, scale, or modify an ungrouped collection of objects, it makes a hash out of things by transforming them all separately instead of as a group.

The problem I found was that when one changes the paper size from US Letter to A4, the document is transformed from one of the corners and not the center. So, the right margin moves inwards while the left margin remains the same.

In the meantime, anyone using A4 paper can solve this by selecting everything on the page, grouping it, then going to Object>Transform>Movement Options, entering -0.115 in the Move By (W) field, and clicking Apply. This will shift things over appropriately.

Author:  anvil [ 12-07-2011, 01:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

I am using the CC330L Silhouette SD, and yes just a tiny sliver of white here and there, nothing that edging won't cover, certainly much less than a millimeter.

Author:  Zenguy [ 12-07-2011, 01:48 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!


Author:  Veskit [ 12-16-2011, 01:08 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Wow Mel, this is great news, I already own the camp from your old site, I'll likely rebuy since I've never assembled it due to no machine cutting files.

I'm hoping that this works out and we see more cutbashes in the future since my Mars Station has seen no love either due to lack of cut files.......

Author:  oldschooldm [ 12-17-2011, 08:43 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

I've got cutfiles for the Shahad Ziggurat just waiting for final instructions for submitting as a kitbash... Interestingly, everything fit easily and the only things I had to move were text [it was too close to where the registration marks go. [Honestly, the frame surrounding each page works great as reg-marks.]


More pics at http://photobucket.com/paperziggurat

[This post is a public service message for the other folks that love these models and would build more of them with cutfiles. :-D]

Author:  MelEbbles [ 12-18-2011, 12:25 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Nice!

I'm still waiting for feedback from Cameo users to make sure my test setup is good to go for them as well. I'd really hate to jump the gun just because it works for discontinued hobby cutter models, then have to do everything over again because there was some sort of gotcha I didn't run into because I don't own a Cameo. Normally, I'd just buy one for the sake of expediency, but I already have a perfectly good Graphtec Craft ROBO II and I don't have an extra $300+ burning a hole in my pocket. :)

So, when I get back to work tomorrow, I'm going to do some sort of test page for Cameo users and post it here, just to cross that item off the list and keep things moving.

The black check frame on my old model pages is actually the first thing I get rid of during the new conversions, for two reasons: it's 7.5x10", which is too wide for some A4 cutter models and too tall for using with the more cost-effective and faster DIY carrier sheets, and the Cameo also uses a filled-in square box in the lower left corner instead of an L-shaped regmark.

The proper size for the cutting area is closer to 7.25x9.5", it's also not vertically centered on the page, and there cannot be any regmarks present except for those automatically generated by Silhouette Studio at the time of printing. (That last bit is for compatibility with the Cameo when Silhouette Studio's regmark mode is set to "Auto" or "Cameo")

I'm hoping to have things set up so we can start accepting cutfile submissions before the first of January. (There's more stuff to do on the backend and this also ties in with getting regular kitbash submissions off the ground.)

Author:  oldschooldm [ 12-18-2011, 07:50 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!


Author:  Veskit [ 01-11-2012, 01:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Any movement on this? I wouldn't mind seeing someone taking the reins for some of the older kits like Mars Station and others....

Author:  oldschooldm [ 01-11-2012, 01:37 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!


Author:  MelEbbles [ 01-11-2012, 02:06 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Sorry about the delay--I should be back at it within a few days. Some important stuff for the storefront backend came up that needed to be seen to before the middle of January, so the cutfile project was temporarily put on the back burner. Once the backend enhancements and extensions have been tested and the live storefront has been updated, I'm back to work on this and the general kitbash submission functionality.

Author:  drake113 [ 02-17-2012, 12:42 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Any movement on this? I've got a Cameo sitting next to me, forlorn and unloved.

Author:  Veskit [ 02-17-2012, 08:21 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Not to mention I'd love to see some cutfiles for older sets...

Author:  MelEbbles [ 02-17-2012, 11:07 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

I gotta talk to Denny about a couple of things that came up when I revisited this idea earlier in the month, and I'm waiting for a good opportunity to do so (likely right after the next batch of releases). Not bad things, don't worry, just different, and I'd prefer to talk them over with the rest of the guys first before saying anything publicly.

Basically, the thing that itches me is that even this cutfile kitbash idea of mine still leaves us vulnerable to the whims of whoever's selling the most popular hobby cutters on the market, and nobody who flogs cutters has our best interests at heart. If we're going to do something like this, I'd prefer to have some kind of future-proofing against the kind of dick move that Quickutz pulled with the Cameo registration marks, and I don't want to be limited to just *their* hardware either. I've been keeping an eye on the industry and there are better cutters which are coming down in price gradually, so we'd end up revisiting this exact same problem all over again within a couple of years. I'm kind of not liking the idea of repeating this whole process for every new file format that comes our way, or having a ton of cutfile kitbashes cluttering up the store and they only work with Silhouette-series cutters or whatever.

I had some ideas that would future-proof things to a certain extent and greatly alleviate the frustration and hand-wringing over the issue, but they're kind of major and I'm not comfortable making such sweeping policy changes all by myself. They need to be discussed with the other developers before I say anything further.

Author:  ehisey [ 02-17-2012, 04:12 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Thanks for the update. I'll stay my purchase of cutter then. Looks like things are going ot be interesting :)

Author:  Alexio [ 02-17-2012, 10:54 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Another thumbs up for it working with the Silhouette SD - I just got my new* SD this afternoon.

I bought your field camp from the WWG store (since my copy came on the CD) to get the cutfiles, opened up one of the tents in Studio, printed it from Studio on my epson printer, stuck the printout to a cardstock carrier sheet with my blue Scotch Reusable Glue Stick, and ran it through the Silhouette.

Zip, zop, and out it came, all cut out and perfectly registered (no white showing.

Alexio
*gently used, all original parts, purchased on ebay for less than $200usd.

Author:  ehisey [ 02-18-2012, 08:42 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

As soon as I decided to put off buying a SD or a Cameo, I get some one offerig to buy me one if I will build them a couple of 4x8 game boards.

Author:  Gamesmith Denny [ 02-18-2012, 10:56 AM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!


Author:  Alexio [ 02-18-2012, 12:44 PM ]
Post subject:  Re: New Kitbash Cutfile Implementation Beta!

Thanks should go to Chris Roe - I'd swear I saw this idea on his blog. I bought the glue stick from him (for Guncrawl) too. It works great - I managed to print another sheet using the same glue smear, but I need to dial down my blade thickness - it cut through my carrier sheet doing the second page.

Alexio

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