To avoid any possible confusion, this is NOT an official WWG poll. This is a purely personal survey and is nothing to do with my role as moderator on these forums. (FYI, I'm not aware of any plans by Denny/WWG to alter TLX.) - Zenguy


TLX tiles are designed for use with 1/4" (6mm) foamcore. Yet very few (if any) people use 1/4" foamcore when building TLX.

Instead, people (including the WWG team themselves) seem to use 3/16" (5mm) foamcore, because it is:
- much more affordable
- commonly available (1/4" (6mm) foamcore is hard to find or unavailable in many areas)
- perfectly good for the task

The resulting 25% difference between the thickness of the foamcore and the TLX tile design height:
- Confuses people new to building TLX tiles
- Creates less robust tiles than if using 1/4" foamcore
- Can result in unexpected variation in TLX constructions due to the 1/16" design 'slack' (c.f. WWG's normally impeccable design standards)

Which leads to the question: Would TLX be better, for the bulk of customers, if it was optimized for 3/16" (5mm) foamcore?

(FYI, changing to 3/16" tile design need not affect walls and normal height posts, but would require tweaks to existing tiles, double height posts, and possibly roof pieces.)

I personaly don't care because... I use 3mm foamcore...
Because I can have big sheets of 3mm very cheaply.

So I do already cheat with templates

Perhaps the wording should be more like TLX should be optimized for 3/16" / 5mm because it is more readily available at a more resonable price for the majority of people who spend their money to support WWG.

Seriously, this again? THE SYSTEM WORKS AS DESIGNED.

Sure, I would prefer if it was based on 3/16, but I don't really care that much.

I use 3/16" and it works fine as is. If I were to all of the sudden have everything coming out in smaller heights, it would mean that the thickness of my current tiles and that of future ones would not match. This is a no-go for me.

No go for me too, I use 3/16th and it works and looks fine...see no need to change horse in the middle of this trek

Although the system works as-is. I'd think that having the smaller foamcore as an option would be great. Mind you the work involved in making this happens leads me to believe it won't.

This. I'm fine with the current system. Changing things would seem to just create two differing standards, which seems suboptimal.

Wow again? Don't get me wrong here, I'm definitely not trying to be a smart#ss. Its just that I thought this horse had been beaten to death in several other threads. After putting together close to 550 tiles from the different sets, I can say with certainty that the system works just fine with 3/16th foamcore. No changes are needed. I see their (WWG) point in making it work for the larger foam also. If you customize it for the smaller foam, the people that do use the larger foam and can't easily get the smaller foam are left out. They want to appeal to the largest audience and I agree with them. Don't fix what isn't broken!

I use 3/16'th and I've modified all my base tile pdf.s to have a mark where I need to fold. Easy enough to do.

X eleventybillion

Does this work properly if you combine multiple levels with double height posts?

I haven't built any double height posts yet, but anticipate they'll need to be shortened by 1/16" to work properly with two single levels stacked on each other (due to the middle tile being 1/16" thinner than designed).

I would be willing to guess that two levels would work 'okay', as 1/16" isn't that much slack to worry about. I would think that this becomes exaggerated with more levels though.

I can assure you that for only 2 levels, the difference is not noticeable, and I do use 3mm thick foamcore, so the difference should be even more visible.
I haven't tried building higher grounds.

Current poll results:
- 4% (1 person) using 1/4" foamcore but happy to switch to 3/16" standard
- 45% prefer the current standard
- 29% prefer switching to 3/16" standard
- 20% don't care

As at date of posting:
The sole 1/4" foamcore user being happy to switch to 3/16" standard
Less that 50% voting to stay with the current standard.
And on a forum where people are likely to have investments in the current TLX tiles - Who'd have picked that?
Maybe there is some reason for having this discussion after all.

When this was first debated no one knew what proportion of customers would use 3/16" vs 1/4" foamcore. That made it inevitable that TLX would compromise on supporting both thicknesses. (For the nay sayers: If it wasn't a compromise, why was there so much debate at the time?).
Now it appears the large majority of customers use 3/16" foamcore and very few use 1/4" foamcore.
If TLX was starting now, what;s the likelihood it would support 3/16" foamcore only.

NB: This isn't about finding fault with TLX - TLX is great. This is about whether it is possible to improve TLX, what would be involved in doing that, and whether the result would be worth it.

So, an invitation to all those who've been dissing this discussion:

Thank you, we've heard your opinions about whether this is a suitable discussion for this forum.

Now, we'd love it if you could look beyond that and provide some constructive input to this discussion:

1. Would TLX be better if it explicitly catered for 3/16" foamcore?
1a. For existing customers?
1b. For new customers?
2. What would be required to successfully make that change?
3. What are the pros and cons of doing so?

But then you have people like me for whom both of the two 3/16" answers were valid: I use 3/16", I don't want WWG to change from 1/4", but I would have preferred if it were in 3/16" rather than 1/4".

You have to be really careful with surveys -- you're not always measuring what you think you are measuring, especially with a small sample size.

Steve

Zenguy, can you propose some pros? It doesn't *seem* like it'll make the product *better* for customers. It doesn't *seem* like it would cause more people to buy products. It doesn't *seem* like it would benefit people who've been making 1/4" tiles up the wazoo.

It looks like most of the comments are from people who either:

don't care either way, or
don't want this to happen.

If this is a major resource drain, responding to customer complaints about it, then I understand the need to fix it.



Right. So to anyone who felt it a good idea to go 3/16" only, want to step forward? I hope people don't go bashing responses - I'm really interested in knowing why some feel there is a need for this.

Be careful like he said about how you ask your questions and what conclusions you take from the answers. That is the problem with small surveys. You are saying that less than 50% want to stay with it as it is, but you are leaving out the 20% that don't care either way. They could be seen as both I support the terrain as it is or its not perfect but I'll deal with it because its no big deal after all. Or what it says, I don't care because it works. People usually only complain when something doesn't work. They could go either way. Thats what I don't care means.
As far as changing the set goes, I can't see a reason to change it that would really benefit anybody. Like I posted earlier, I have well over 500 tiles made with the smaller foamcore and they work perfectly. There is absolutely no problem whatsoever with them not matching up or anything like that. Changing them would only mess up the builds of people that use the larger terrain, because they would no longer be able to build because of the size changes. It only works that way if you go from bigger to smaller not the other way around. There is no benefit to that, the only thing happening then is that a portion of the community would be alienated by the move. I can't see a positive reason to do this for something that already works perfectly.
I don't ever see Denny and crew actively trying to alienate their customers and a move like that would do just that. Remember that just because there was one person saying that they use the large foam but would be cool with going to smaller foam, doesn't mean all of the silent lurkers out there that use large foam would be also.
Please remember that I'm not bashing you on this. I'm actually trying to see a valid reason to propose or enact such a change. I just can't see it. You asked for some pros for changing the sizes but I don't see any. I am speaking with huge amounts of TLX building experience (I have every set) and there is no reason to change anything. It works perfectly with both size foam.

You're right, you do have to be very careful interpreting surveys and statements. Hence the careful accuracy of the statement: "less than 50% voting to stay with the current standard."
It will help, of course, when we get more votes and therefore a bigger sample size. (FYI, since that summary, the only addition to the voting so far has been for the 3/16" standard!)

As for the pro's of the 3/16" standard, you just have to look at the con's of the 1/4" standard when using 3/16" foamcore, which are that tile construction is a) sloppy, and b) confusing. (C.f. WWG's normal quality, where if you print/cut/score correctly then pieces will line up exactly.)

That would be good.

Great that you asked that. But what a shame such a comment is needed on a forum that takes pride in its friendly reputation.

I'll see if I can put together a video showing how I do it. Its not sloppy looking at all.
As I don't see them changing anything in the formatting for reasons they have already given us in earlier posts, I really do hope you find a way to build your TLX sets that will allow you to enjoy the experience as much as I do. I love building the pieces and then using them for games and displays. Its a ton of fun and I understand how something being off can take away from that experience.
On whether TLX needs to change or if it is fine as is, we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is really no problem. Different people look at things differently and prefer to do things in different ways. That's what makes this a great community.

Perhaps this would be an ideal middle ground, not so much a change in the standard but full support to both sizes. Also, having not built any TLX I'm not going to vote, but I can mention the early confusion I had when I first stumbled upon the product. I immediately searched the web for 1/4 inch and was reluctant to look more into the product due to lack of diplomats and cost. If I had not been interested enough to read the forums I might have left the site and forgotten about it.

You mention not building any TLX. Has the 'confusion' you refer to affected your decision to build TLX?


That does seem like a simple, practical solution.

Not at all, I've actually been drooling over quite a few sets. I haven't purchased anything yet because I've been far too crunched for time and I don't have a group anymore. Maybe if I had some gamers I'd make the time, but that hasn't happened yet.

Hey guys, I just thought I'd chime in and make a couple of points regarding why the 1/4" borders exist from a design perspective.

#1: Ease of use. 1/4 is simply an easier number to design around that 3/16.
4 x 1/4 = 1
4 x 3/16 = 3/4

It gets messy.

#2: Retro compatibility. 3/16" foamcore will still work in a system designed for 1/4" flaps, you just have to tuck them in a little. The reverse is not true (3/16" flaps on 1/4" foamcore). This would mean anyone who can only get 1/4" foamcore would be out of luck.

That said, even though I notice that the plurality of this poll is either fine with the system as is or doesn't care either way (16 out of 26 votes at this time) you should also be aware that we have no plans to change the system anytime soon.

Well, here's a couple thoughts:
What would the differences be in the files? an adjusted cutting template, trim down the edges of each tile, and adjust the double post in the set if it's present (or post to post adapter, however it's done). Or am I missing something stupid? Maybe I haven't been looking close enough, but the tiles I've looked at the edges on have fairly generic textures, should be easy just to chop off 1/16" on them. You're making this sound a lot harder than it seems?

So when the new website goes up, maybe make it a checkout option if you want 1/4" or 3/16"? Or include both? I'm sure with an adapted standard tlx page, a couple of the kitbashers around here could crank out the older sets "new" tiles, maybe in exchange for store credit? maybe sell them as kitbash modules instead of with the whole package?

I've done some tiles on 3/16 myself, and while they work, they just don't seem right...especially feels fiddly on multilayer builds. I'd love to give dedicated 3/16" tiles a try.

I'll just reflect what Matt said; there are no plans to change the current standard and there are no plans to reverse engineer older offerings to native 3/16". The system simply works as advertised (I know how Joe Corporate that sounds but it's true).

We've covered all of this before in detail. 1/4" was chosen because it works for both 1/4" & 3/16" and that gives people options when at their local craft stores, where supply can vary dramatically. All staff designers use 3/16" foamcore without issue and a gross majority of customers simply don't have issue with 3/16" tiles using 1/4" thick templates. If the reverse were true my inbox and Aubrey's inbox would be flooded with 2 years of daily complaints and they simply aren't. Its just not a groundshed issue to warrant a massive redesign/retrofit down to native 3/16" thicknesses.

All of that said, perhaps there is more we can do to engage the community to help those who are experiencing build issues. Additional videos, photos, tips. We'll do whatever we can to get everyone up to speed.

Hmm, perhaps for future floor tiles could we just have inconspicuous markers where one would need to score the line to fit 3/16th's better? It's not a massive overhaul, even just a couple of guidelines would solve the issue for floor tiles.

It's not that I can't do it, it was actually intuitive if you can force yourself to keep edge at 90 degrees, because that's the only way to glue down the tabs is with the concave shape. But that shape makes it not sit quite flush if you're off a little in setting on the upper stories of a build...I guess I'm a bit OCD.

It's weird if you just do the tight-wrap or score as you suggest falhurk...you get a bit of overlap in the corner and either have to trim the linx tab hole covers or stick them permanently in the up position.

Even lacking official WWG support, Denny, if people submitted "kitbashes" of the 3/16" tiles, would you guys sell them on the website? Or is it just a no-go?