These points would be relevant if Terralips were targeted at 'dedicated-gamers-expecting-to-do-further-work-to-use-the-product'. But it's not.

Terraclips is intended to be a use-out-of-the-box product. Requiring the people that Terraclips is targeting to buy an additional product just to make their first set work isn't what they expect - therein lies the problem.

Denny's initial plan to include clips with the set was right on the money.
Unfortunately, the demands of sorting out the problems with the product 'inside the box' took attention away from optimizing the entire package for the customer. The result: changes that improved the 'internal' product quality at the cost of the overall quality (i.e. suitability to the mass customer) of the package. Specifically, taking the clips out of the tile box solved one quality problem (sctratched tiles), but created another (customers now need to buy two separate products to be able to use either).

To make matters worse, the packaging of the tile sets proudly announces '...clips' in the title banner, but makes no mention that a separate pack of clips is required to make this work. No, no suggestion that a separate package of clips is required to use the tiles.

Instead of Box = Terraclips (the current design), what is needed is something along the lines of: Tiles + Clips = Terraclips

Here's three possible ways to achieve this:

1. Fix the packaging:
   
   • Short term workaround: add a sticker to every tiles pack making it clear that a separate package of clips is required
   • Medium term: Redo the packaging art work of the tiles boxes to make it clear a separate package of clips is required
   • Long term: Revisit the whole package to ensure it is as easy as possible for new customers to start with Terraclips
2. The Pricing workaround:
   
   • Set up a special 'introductory combo' deal where anyone buying a box of tiles gets a box of clips at a bargain basement price (e.g. 1/3 or less of the 'normal' price for the clips), limit one box of clips per set of tiles. The goal here is to make the bargain so good that it becomes a no-brainer for customers (even kids on limited budgets) to throw in a set of clips with each tile set they buy.
   • To get this to work, adjust the 'normal' price of the clips and, if necessary the tile sets, until you hit a point that ensure the 'special' is a) extremely attractive and b) still profitable.
3. The point of sale display solution:
   
   • Create a point of sake display rack that shows the need for two products

The sets look real good and I look forward to their release and availability.

I do agree that a clear statement that the clips are an additional purchase should be prominently displayed on the boxes.

As far as the clips damaging the pieces if included in the box, well over the past half century and more of me buying stuff off the shelf or through the mails and shipping companies there have been plenty of products that included various hard components made of either metal or hard plastic along with the softer components made of either pressboard, cardboard, foam, etc. where the hard components did not damage the soft components at all. I am sure the products had been shipped over long distances including long ocean voyages on ships at sea, either to warehouses then store shelves or directly to my home. The hard components where in a separate box or a bag in the larger box containing everything needed to construct the product.

Looking at the quality of these builds and parts I think you guys should look into talking with Corvus Beli and setting up a similar deal you have for malifaux for their game Infinity, I'd be willing to bet most players on their forums would leap at the chance for high quality low work terrain for the game and since Infinity is a terrain heavy game you'd probbly sell alot.

I know i'd buy at least two of everything

Other than that these sets look magnificent and if I was into the fantasy i'd definatley buy some, might get some anyway for Mordhiem games

Just a word here on packaging...

The above isn't an issue anymore since we upgraded our packaging to boxes and only relates to last years packaging (everything was in clear bags with a top tag). The previous iteration of the packaging at last years GenCon, meant that the corners of clips could potentially damage product DURING SHIPPING ONLY. It has absolutely no relevance to the durability of the terrain itself or even the normal interaction of the clips.

Packaging in general involved a lot of budgetary juggling but we decided to upgrade our packaging so that product would arrive safe and sound.



Well, just to be clear it is listed on the front of every box. We've also done additional work with distributors to make that crystal clear with trickle down to store owners. We will continue to work at driving this concept home in other ways.

Once people get into designing things with TerraClips they'll quickly understand that the products modularity extends to clip usage as well. No matter what balance of clips we throw at the end-consumer, they will always require a different amount of clips and clip types depending on their layout design. Hence the need to sell them separately. Separating the two products keeps things flexible (by allowing you to decide how many clip packs you really need) and affordable (by not forcing you to buy a pack-for-a-pack every time).

It helps to think of TerraClips just as you would the little plastic connecting blocks we all grew up with as children. One box of anything just makes you want more to expand the possibilities and you're always on the hunt for that extra piece. The clips are also intended to be terrain genre agnostic, so no matter what your future TerraClips terrain purchase, the clips are stand-alone items.

All of that said, I think all of us realize that it will take time to get the product concept across to people. And in future as things evolve, packaging and bundles may shift around while we figure out the ideal format balance.

It just looks amazing. I am anticipating having as much fun building the terrain up as I have playing the games on them, and my kids are going to go nuts! "Look! Dad's bought box after box of stuff that's sort of like Lego but also sort of like Lord Of The Rings and also sort of like NOTHING WE'VE EVER SEEN BEFORE! It's awesome! You're the best Dad ever!"

Okay, they won't say the last bit, but they will totally freak

i understand your point about packaging and making sure the product arrives safe and sound...but i'll have to agree with others that it kinda sucks to not have ANY clips in the package. i think most of us here would buy additional clips for our mountainous terraclips environments we plan on creating, but i think most average consumers pass over "impulse buys" when you have to buy 2 separate products. i may sound stupid but its like buying an Xbox 360 and it not have any controllers in the box. yes you have to buy another controller for multiplayer, but the console is playable (albeit in a limited fashion w/o xbox live, games etc).

i dunno...i would almost rather buy 1 box of each product with LESS tiles in it than you have now with it including clips as well vs. buying tiles and clips separately. maybe the average impulse buy consumer isn't your target audience though and you are looking more towards the game store crowd that understands the concept of "up front investment" when considering war game terrain. so maybe my points aren't as valid here considering your target audience . but i guess thats why WoTC sells packs of 5-8 miniatures for $15 instead of packs of 30 mini's for $50.

REGARDLESS...i'll buy tiles and clips

We'll get it there Hulkster I think we all appreciate the concerns and we're definitely listening.

I think the point Gump is making, is that most people will see this like a 3D board game and expect there to be everything in the box to make it work. I would have expected the clips in the box till this thread made it clear otherwise.

my comments may come off as criticism, but please don't take it that way. i'm a HUGE supporter of WWG (even if i can't afford too much) and the bottom line is that i think Terraclips has enormous potential to reach the mainstream. i know this is not a little known thing or you guys wouldn't be trying so hard to make it perfect!

all of us here on the forums are critical, but thats only because we want you guys to succeed as much as humanly possible on this product because it really is awesome. Terraclips addresses the three main cons of WWG products in general and those are:

- card stock terrain sucks to construct for impatient people like me
- card stock models can be easily bent or come unglued
- construction takes too freakin' long

Terraclips isn't as versatile per se, but man it looks awesome and i dont feel like its going to be crushed accidentally. can't wait!!!!

Terraclips really is a superb product, we all just want it to go as well as it deserves: i.e. extremely well.

The thing that both WWG and Wyrd need to keep in mind is that you only get one chance to make a good first impression - and that chance has already been hurt by a one year (!) production delay.

Sell a bundle with the clips and terrain taped together, put a clearly visible coupon on the cover for a discount on the clips, but otherwise folks are going to view selling the clips separately as a clumsily hidden cost.

Distributors won't 'make it crystal clear' - this is one small line of support products. They won't tell every retailer that they will need to buy the clips as well - it just isn't going to be that important to them. (Ask anyone who has had to deal with Alliance.)

The distributors will most likely mention the need in their catalog, but game stores are as prone to poorly researched impulse buys as their customers - and this terrain is pretty enough that there will be impulse buys by the stores. You may well see impulse buys by stores that don't even carry Malifaux.

People do judge a book by the cover, and they will feel betrayed, even if the box mentions the need for clips, especially if there are no clips to be had in the store - adding a one or two week wait to what might have been an impulse buy.

The Auld Grump

These pictures are amazing! I love the combination on the table. I can't wait to have tons of this stuff.

I think there is a good reason why clips and card aren’t packaged together. It’s a matter of getting more for your money. I know there are nutters like me who will combine 6 sets to make dazzling 10-story layouts, but most people will combine 2 sets together for a nice Malifaux table.

For your first 2 sets, combining clips with the core product looks like the natural thing to do, but not so for your 3rd or 4th set. You can only play 1 game at a time, so when you could only buy combo deals, you would spend 18$ each time for connectors that you won’t need anymore. Compare it to TLX. On your first set, you make a lot of connector tabs. When you make your third set, you just use the old ones you had already done.

Making combo deals would only be interesting for first time buyers, not for people who have tried the system, like it and want more. It’s like GW selling their plastic kits with a bottle of polystyrene glue and a few bottles of paint in every single one of them. Sure, for the first one it is nice, because you have everything in the box. After your third rhino though, you end up with a lot of paint and glue that you’ll never use.

So only selling them as combo packs isn’t a good idea. The alternative is selling separate deals, I guess. A combo "starter" pack for each and a single "expansion" pack for each. Which would result in 7 different products instead of 4 at the moment. That’s where stock costs and shop real estate comes into play though. selling a line of 7 products means most shops will just pass on it because they haven’t got the money or the place to invest in it.

So yes, I agree that it might be confusing like this, but I think it is the best compromise that was possible.

+++++ Thirded +++++

This looks like it will be popular but as said not having the clips is a bad idea

As to GW - why would you need clips? everyone has glue for the modern stuff and the older stuff had the clips cast on the the plastic parts!!

I'm sure there is some UK trading standards rules that this would brake !

There should be Beginners sets with terrain and clips and then separate clips and expansions.
An idea to get around this is to just make sure both box's (tiles and clips) use the same size packaging and just stick the clip box to the tile box.

Even after this winge I still want the dungeon set if it ever get done.

Time for some retail reality.

The 2 biggest costs of every game store in the world (apart from personnel cost of course) are space and stock. Nobody has unlimited space in their store, so you can’t offer every cool thing that comes along. You have to choose what you want to support and what you don’t want to support, because the same wall space that is occupied by some obscure non-selling sci-fi game could be occupied with the next big thing that everybody is playing. Making double releases for every terraclips box means shopkeepers have to empty double the space to stock this. Now the boxes aren’t small to begin with, so having separate beginner and expansion sets in reality would mean that lots of stores won’t stock the product, because they would have to ditch too many other things. 7 different boxes (to start with, remember there could be more down the line) equals about the space you would need for a skirmishing game like Malifaux. I think I know what I would stock if I had to choose.

The second is the price of the stock. Shopkeepers have to invest in their stock. If there were separate beginner and expansion versions of the same product, the investment would be effectively doubled. If I as a shopkeeper can choose between spending $500 on something new, or spending $1000 on the small thing, I know what I would choose.

Like Grump said, this is a small line of support products. If it takes too much money to invest in or if it takes up too much shelf space, stores will be a lot less likely to stock it.

i think you have a fair point from a customer point of view and in an ideal world there should be a gazillion different combinations deals, each with their own discount. Sadly enough even Wyrd and WWG have to abide by the laws of reality when it comes to selling their products.

Then the sad reality may be that the line fails.

I really think not having the clips in the box will end up being that important - the difference between being a successful, if niche, product and a product failure.

The box is useless without the clips and you are supposed to buy a pack of clips with each box really means that each box is $15 more expensive than labeled.

I think that it is going to be that simple. If the product is too far along the production stream to fix this problem then the line is doomed. A good idea, but the packaging will kill it. Arguments for and against aren't going to matter if people don't buy the initial sets.

The Auld Grump

As this is a beginning product, it should be important to have clips included in the box.
After all, nobody already have clips, so every body is going to buy a set box and a clip box...
Then later on, packaging could be redone to separate clips from the set boxes.
But I agree with most comments about the necessity to have everything you need in one box at first. As Grump said, it could be the difference between a market killer or a very good idea that didn't work (like so many)

I only feel lucky to be at the forum...because I would belive that it was like last year and don't bought the clips... if it's clear from the begining (in the package) that you need the clips then I can't see the "panick"... Would it be better to have as a starter set all togheter or at least a enought to begin to play... Yes ! Would itbe apocalypsis ? I think not !

I only hope that things go well and you can learn from the "mistakes" ... I belive having the guts of say NO and wait a year to go on tell a lot of the quality you want to give !

Welp, as a retailer I can say I'm glad this product starts out at 4 SKUs, it is the difference between stocking and special ordering only.

I'll personally be able to sell these sets well because I've been combing over news on them for a year. I can probably convince my boss to let me run a package deal with the clips, even though we don't normally discount. Without making a deal, 64$+tax in two items to fill a third to half a table quickly just kills in comparison to other modular 3D systems, which for the same price gives you floors or accessories, but not both, and not walls. Two sets and a pack of clips, at about 113$+tax compares closely in price to competitor sets that I'll estimate amounts to 2.5sq feet in one layer.

As long as the marketing is clear I think the price point will speak for itself.

If mention of the need to buy clips packs separately makes it into GTMs solicitation, makes it into early press material, makes it into reviews that may indeed ding the product for it, then people will figure it out. SKUs for ordering all 4 Terraclips products will end up right next to each other on hardcopy order forms, and the risk of bringing in the line will warrant a read of the solicitation or a quick use of Google - hobby retailers are *crazy*, not stupid.

Even without the clips, a customer who made a mistake can use the floor tiles until they've gotten clips. THEN Terraclips are competing unfavorably with a certain line of pre-printed tilesets in price (but NOT art!).

I agree that it's less convenient for the customer and comes across as a hidden cost, but I think hobbyists are capable of doing the research. Maybe a little too much research, as dudes with smartphones pore over them while in my shop looking at board games.

It's a risk, but I think it's a tenable one.

While having the clips seperate kinda sucks, it will not kill the product.
Alot of people are interested in these sets , and aside from some complaining will still buy because there really is nothing else out there like this.
This is a hobby item for a niche market, now if you get big enough to sell these at ToysRus and Walmart you might want to include the clips, but for now seperate is while not preferable , fine with me and I'm sure many other gamers.
As a hypothetical , lets say I did buy these on impulse and knew nothing about them. I'd get home realise I couldnt build without another purchase.
Then I would rage and cuss like no tomorrow , tell everyone that stops by the house how lame it is that I have to buy something else to make the terrain, in general throw a fit.
Then I'd get over it buy the clips , and call my friends a couple of days later to come see the awsome build I made with my new terrain box.
Then they would want to go buy a box (and some clips , having learned from my mistake)to build their own.
The only thing I can see killing this product is if availability of the clips fails . If I cant find the clips to buy for my terrain box I'd probably sell the box and be done with the product (at least until some new awsome expansion set comes out that I will have to have)
As long as you're marketing to nerd's like me the coolness factor will outweigh the inconvenience , and the cost.
Going mass market you'd need another solution.

As a huge fan of Malifaux I know how much buzz there is about these boxes in their community , and getting lovely counters for Malifaux in every box far outweighs the seperate clips situation for me. The wait for these was so long that I finnally decided to bite the bullet and download some terrainlinx sets. I've built so much terrain for the table that I don't need the terraclips boxes, and wasn't going to buy them.
Then I saw the new photos. I thought these were just going to be thoumonts and streets in a box , but no you had to rework all the textures and make counters for the game I play so now I have to figure out how to afford to make multiple purchases of these and still eat.(I still love you guys though).

I'm more pessimistic about the separation of the clips, especially since it was announced differently last year.

Heck, I even went to Maelstrom games (one of the best places to buy it from Europe) just a few minutes ago, and their picture of each set still states incorrectly that the clips are included.

And almost everyone who pre-ordered last year and just kept their pre-order in the trust that it would eventually arrive, is in for a very nasty surprise.

It is not August yet, but people start pre-ordering again, and clearly the news hasn't reached all outlets yet.

ok...so ...

$118 + s/h set aside for Streets & Buildings. And a set of clips. Hope that 1 set is enough to pull of something similar to the promo image of said two sets.

I both understand and yet scratch my head at the segregated release. I would have liked to see a set of clips intended for a predetermined set of designs packaged in. But hey, what do I know. You're the mastermindzez... I am simply a patron & fan.

Absolutely stonking beautiful btw. Live the smoke grey clips. Love the integration. Love seeing your dogged perseverance become a reality. By the looks of it...well worth every minute of blood-sweat and paper cuts.

~Will(aka. Floyd)

Reading the descriptions given on sites:

FRPGames - No mention of buying clips
Warstore - No mention of buying clips
Miniature Market - No mention of buying clips
Maelstrom - No mention of buying clips (Listed Above)
Wayland Games - No mention of buying clips
*EDIT* Paizo - No mention of buying clips

So much for 'Crystal Clear'. In most if not all cases the boxes, when they are shown, are either from when the set was going to contain the clips or is too blurry to read the no clips warning easily. Wanna bet that none of the places that have TerraClips up for pre-order mention it?


Typical image shown.
Note - in blurry letters it still reads 'Includes One Combo Pack of Clips'

The Auld Grump

Well, if I had bought the terrain box for my grandson I'd be very upset to say the least and embarrassed as hell if it were given as a gift and then discovered it had no clips.

I think many shoppers are not going to know, because it will cross over from RPG terrain to being another construction 'toy'. They'll see the box and assume it has the clips.

You should think about Zen's idea ... put a very visible sticker on the box saying the clips are sold separately.

It makes no sense at all not to have included the clips in the box. Frankly, I'd feel ripped off to have to buy them separately. It adds too much cost to the set.

I have to agree with others that not including the clips is a bad idea IMO. I truly hope Terraclips is a great success, but I really think AuldGrump is spot on in his assessment of how it will be received without the clips included.

Uh oh - looks like none of the online stores (the major ones anyway) are making it clear that clips are needed.... that could be a problem... and stickering the boxes won't help for the online folks.

Even if the clips were shrink-wrapped by the stores themselves to the boxes, it would be a step in the right direction.

As it is, I have to say that I kinda resent the fact that clips aren't included

I just had a thought... I wonder if the pieces of cardboard are thick enough to change the design so as to enable slots within them for piecing together, sortof like LEGO?

I agree with this 100%, and this is as a game store manager. People want to buy what comes in the box, and they need it simple. Combine the sets and combine the cost.

This will be a major failing of the product if it isn't done.

Hey gang,

Was away for a couple days but wanted to chime in on the above issue officially...

This was voiced over at Wyrd as well but it boils down to this; a few folks and a slice of slightly too eager retailers are referencing information which is over a year old and not reflective of the current product or format.

In the year since then, substantial improvements were made to give us a product which met and even exceeded our own standards. In fact, no part of the manufactured product was left untouched (save for the graphics) and we all worked especially hard to ensure the factory got it exactly right this time around (not just right but better in every way possible). In order to maintain an optimal price-point in the face of these broad improvements and to account for variable clip usage on the end-user side, separate clip pack purchases fit our initial launch requirements.

We are making it 100% crystal clear to distributors and retailers that separate clip pack purchases are an absolute requirement. Its in every aspect of run-up media and press relating to TerraClips and in the final retail boxes they will recieve, completely unmissable. Those who are still using the year old product information are actively being or have already been notified to update their info before receiving product for sale. We are taking every conceivable step to ensure everyone knows what TerraClips is, how it functions and how it has changed since last year's false start.

And finally it should be noted that these forum threads were only intended to give a small sneak peek. The attention we've received here and abroad has has been overwhelming. We will continue to bring you much more information over the course of the next month as we inch ever closer to the official TerraClips launch.

We genuinely appreciate the enthusiasm and support in general. Your opinions count and believe me when I say we always listen.