You have to be kidding me?

I preordered this product about 1 year ago. Have parted with my £'s and got nothing.

I wait and wait, and finally, finally a glimmer of a delivery.
But I'm told there are no clips? Is this right.?
Are you changing the name of the product? Remove the word clips from the title.

This is a ridiculous farce. What kind of company is this?
All the pre orders should contain clips at the very least. I don't recall reading 'Clips must be purchased separately ' before. If you can point me to where it does state that on your original product page I would be very grateful and won't bother you about this again.

Otherwise..put a box of clips in the packs I regrettably,foolishly and unwisely ordered many,many months ago.

Guys, I was already amazed at the original product, and realise the final version looks even better, I am speachless.

You are holding the future of table scenery(-for-lazy-guys-like-me-who-want-it-all-done-for-them-and-look-awesome) in your mighty hands!

I am heading now to Maelstrom and re-arrange my pre-order (no need to give free clips, I understand your product will be worth the price ), hoping I can score a box before it runs out of stock!

Good luck and looking forward to the next releases, full steam ahead!!

(on the down side I'm not sure I'll be using much my sweet TLX build anymore, but hey, one has to go with progress )

That is excellent news! I'm hoping this is a long term success so I can see these sorts of things regularly used at gaming tables.

(Indeed, I almost wish that you had been purchased by someone like Hasbro simply so that massive economies of scale could herald a Terra-Clip New World Order ;)

If all goes well, maybe they won't need Hasbro or the like

Woah....
You seem to have many concerns there. If you really don't want Terraclips anymore, then contact the people you pre-ordered from and ask for a refund. I'm sure they'll be understanding. But the attacks you made on WWG there are unfair and also unjustified. Terraclips is a product that has evolved, and part of the evolution was making a better product. In the process the clips were removed. I also understand that there was the potential for the clips to damage the terrain if packaged in bags with them. WWG has made the product better, and in the process changed the contents. I think if you still decide to buy you'll be pleased with the result

Let me just repost what our partners at Wyrd had to say about the matter. No sense in covering the same ground, since they summed it up pretty well...



The only thing I would add here, which I brought up previously, is that the product went through some pretty fundamental changes over the last year. Quality was enhanced throughout the product and that had some bearing on how we had to reformat the final release.

Last years false start was an unfortunate confluence of eager store owners jumping the gun a bit and us running into problems with the factory. In the end, we have no control over how various e-stores issue refunds or even how they describe the products being sold. We are doing what we can to inform and update so that everyone understands what the current product is and how it functions.

That reminds me. My pre-order from last year with Maelstrom was 1 set of each plus a pack of clips.

Probably need to order 2? more clip packs now? Is it 1 clip pack for 1 scenery pack still?

Not the end of the world.

You know for all those complaining about the lack of clips im sure theres plenty of room for denny and team to introduce a terraclips introductory set one that includes both tiles from all 3 sets and a pack of clips designed to build 1 particular layout. think of it as a limited edition version of malifux. it could even include a scenario to play on the specific build (say a tavern with an escape tunnel into the sewers).


THe fact is denny and team has produced a product aimed at an audience that strives for modularity. they dont wont to be told what they can build. Yes with the terraclips there is now an easier entry into 3D models for those without the creative flair, those people do need to be sated but the product isnt at a point where it cannot feed their requests. More products are on the way and perhaps there will be kit sets in the future.

Quijenoth makes a good point - look at how LEGO has moved from totally generic to build sets to build sets with blocks so specific they can only be used one way.

At the very least guys, release a book of plans...

Ummm, no. TLX still comes out a whole lot cheaper, counting just materials.

The only way to balance the price is by how much you think your time is worth. Even laying aside the matter of the clips you will spend approximately four times as much to cover the same amount of table with TerraClips.

The primary cost for TLX is not material, but time. If you value your time at $10 an hour then it might not take long at all for TerraClips to become a better choice. If, on the other hand, you have plenty of free time, and consider any time spent prepping for a game as 'free time' then it is a trifle harder to justify. Both views have merit, and most people will fall somewhere between the two.

If you are in a rush, or your time is tight otherwise, (or, possibly, you live in Australia), then TerraClips can make a good deal of sense, but the materials cost alone does not tip the scales. (The price for foamcore in Australia is, I gather, a bit of highway robbery.)

The Auld Grump

That will vary HUGELY from person to person Grump and its not simply a time issue. It depends on what equipment they are using, local material costs and how big they are building their layout. No doubt, you can build a TerrainlinX setting affordably but for most folks it takes a lot of time to get the process and material costs down.

If you average things out TerrainlinX (our Print, Build, Play line) and TerraClips come very close to par in terms of cost. Mileage will vary from person to person.

But fear not, we intend on supporting both systems since they attract two distinct crowds. TerrainlinX also makes a great test-bed for what works and doesn't work in the larger market.



1 clip pack per set is a safe starting point and will provide you with the most options. It largely depends on your layout in terms of which clips will see the most usage, so you'll always have leftovers.



I think you hit the nail on the head here Quijenoth. There's a bit of a disconnect happening out there because many people are coming to terms with just how modular the system is. There isn't really anything like it out there on market so the confusion is certainly understandable.

We definitely have more work to do in order to make things clear to people and we are doing everything we can behind the scenes right now to get everyone up to speed.

I love the TLX system and it fits my budget and needs atm but I do hope that there are plans in the future to do some Titan style TerraClips.
-D²

$50 for a core gaming product like this is a good value. Thank you for keeping the price down by making the clips a separate purchase. After all, the number of clips you need is based on the amount of space you want to fill, not on the number of tiles you have in your collection.
I'm looking forward to the day when you can offer intro kits with enough tiles and clips for one building. A nice inn perhaps?
Right now I'm very happy with my TLX builds. The variety available in TLX is incredible! I'm glad to see you're relying on TLX to support development of the TerraClips line. That should lead to many great kits in the future.
Thanks again for your commitment to high quality and low prices.

I'm not with you on this one.

My problem is printing. to get a printer of high enough quality to match the tcp quality would be several humdred dollars, likely three hundred, now yes I could get that cheaper on the internet, but I could also spend significantly less than retail for tcp on the internet (one store's cost is roughly $130 for all 3 sets and 3 clip packs). of course that is without a robo cutter, which is another added cost. To get those two devices would run me at least $300 dollars and that is before I spent a dime on ink, paper or foam board.

Now I could cut my own materials, but thanks to my farsightedness my close up vision is rather crosseyed and so that sort of thing gives me terrible headaches. This was the main reason I switched to Using Hirst arts molds last year and stopped making paper terrain. It certainly wasn't a lack of love for worldworks visuals or creative style. However even without that issue tcp will still cost me the same or less for a standard build than I was paying for TLX

My local costs for a 2x2 castle works castle
~$60.00 Printing (140 sheets)
~$6 foamboard (2 boards)
~$3 glue
~8 hours cutting
~4 hours assembly
@$5.00 an hour that's another $60 ($99 at the local minimum)
so my cost was well over $100, my cost for my thoumonts build was only slightly less and contained approximately the same amount of material as in a pack of tcp.

furthermore I'm not as skilled at cutting as a computer.

count me in for at least one of each with more purchased later. even if I am disapointed with the clips situation.

Looking at it the other way around and using Sewers as the example:



This is a rough estimation of printing a similar build using TLX. Also, remember that the tiles are all double sided. The total page count is 130 without anchors, tile templates, tabs or posts. This would easily be another 20 pages. That gives us 150 pages for our rough (but fairly close) number. That means, at $50, it comes to roughly $.33 a page. That is just factoring in total cost divided by page count.

One also has to factor in four-five sheets of foamcore, glue, blades (whether it be robocutter or by hand), etc.

I personally love the ability to print what I need and when I need it, but I don't think that I can compete with the cost, even before considering the quality of print and the value of my own time.

I use a Samsung color laser, now two years old - printing, with cardstock included, runs about $10-$12 for a hundred sheets.The printer cost me about $150 at a Black Friday sale online.

Foamcore... I can get for $1 a sheet if I am not fussy, but yeah, my cost for foamcore runs about the same as you, unless it is a 'disposable' build.

Glue... I am more likely to use double sided tape these days. (And whoever it was on this board who suggested the tape - may blessings rain down upon you.) Typically bought at the dollar store, though I pretty much cleaned out Office Depot when the local store went under.

I sometimes use a dab of super glue.

Other prices are comparable - so it all comes down to what you use for printing. My old, not all that lamented, Lexmark would likely have run as high as you are quoting, possibly more, my Canon, maybe a bit less. If I used a CIS...? I don't know how they compare to laser printing, but less costly than Lexmark carts, of that I am certain.

But throwing in labor... that is where Terraclips does best.

The Auld Grump

With my CIS I get 100mil of each color for $15, I printed my Gauntlet Dungeon with less than half of the total ink. So you get a lot of run. Cardstock costs me more per sheet than ink (dunno if that is true, but it certainly feels like it)

'Course, when I am printing I am not likely to count the cost until the toner runs out. Typically Yellow gets used more than anything else.

Please note - I am most emphatically not saying that it is not worth getting Terraclips. I ordered two of each, then went and ordered more clips *grumble, grumble*.

Another trio of factors that I forgot to mention above are portability (TerraClips), appearance (TLX, in my not at all humble opinion), and durability (TerraClips, hands down).

Being able to bung the sets in my bag is what decided me in regards to getting TerraClips, even though I am very satisfied with TLX. Knowing that they are likely to survive when the soda goes flying is reassuring as well.

The clips do detract, but are much better than they were in the initial run, I balance that against time saved, so not a big deal.

Now a preprinted, precut TLX....

The Auld Grump

Will there be Titan sets be released like this?

Now, knowing what TerrainLinX requires and what TerraClips does, I would have chosen TerraClips, and whan I get that sewers table I'm planning on next, I strongly suspect that I'll choose TettaClips even if I lose some of the compatability (grantedly the 3d items in the TLX system ARE tempting).

As for being sceptical of the product when comparing it to GW products, I would disagree. The only GW games that would work well in TLX tables would be Necromunda (sewers) and Mordheim. The players of both games recognize what is required of terrain and will seriosly consider TerraClips. Most likely they also have been disillusioned by GW so far. WHFB40k won't work well in TC tables (at least the ones released thus far).

The separate clips... My opinion is divided, but there are good arguments for both sides and I'm slightly leaning on the separate clips -side. Just make sure that the customers understand that they need to order the clips separately when buying from online stores.

Not true - Warhammer TLX can work - I have considered the Steam Tank scenario from a previous edition, and it would work wonderfully well with TLX, ditto for a WH40K City Fight.

City fights are rare in Warhammer, but I have run them. Other special scenarios to consider would be Defend the Gates, as an army attempts entry into a city that is defended by another and Into the Depths - an invasion of a Skaven held sewer system through multiple entries. (Yes, I have run this last, using Gothic Realms rather than TLX - it was a meatgrinder, but in the end the Skaven were cleansed from the sewers. I think it might even be detailed somewhere in the archives, about two or three months after Missing Persons was released.)

City fights in Warhammer 40K have had entire books dedicated to them, so not much need be said. It can be done, has been done, and GW has sold the tee shirts.

The Auld Grump

Okay, sure, it can work, but I doubt it will actually generate that much sales as the need for multiple sets drives the cost rather high. For clubs, maybe, but for individual players? I think they'll spend the cash on FW models instead.

I know my warmachine group is very much looking forward to terraclips. We've done significant fighting on my terrainlinx cities, Graffham cities and HIrst arts cities.

I'm hoping the precut TLX mounts are still being considered.

I think a decision on that will be held back until they see how well it actually sells.

If TC sells really well, then they might consider that for the next set of TC, or might offer it for this one.

Hmmm, A friend of mine gave me a link to some various Youtube vids for this and I have to say, over all I am impressed by the product. Take no offense but this is a great "lazy man's" terrain.

Seen a vid that a guy took at Gen-con and all in all looks great! I would still be afraid of someone fallinf into it though and bending and braking the clips and the cards. Or even the infamous table lean and 'crunch' that happens.

Now that being said, let me express a few issues I have with it:

First off I will join the rest and say the clips shound have been included. You could have made the box a bit bigger to accomodate a separate small box on the inside that the clips could have been in, thus protecting the sheets, and had everything all in one.

Other companies have done this vary thing, the box with the clips wouldn't have to been a glossed box, just a simple unfinished cardstock box. Heck, it would have probably saved you some cash just in packaging and shipping alone.

To echo what someone said before and to give an example, I just bought a very nice grill for fathers day for myself. I would have been very upset if I unpacked the box and there were no screws to hold it together. Also even if they put on the box that I would have to buy a screw set, I would have promptly looked at another grill.

For $50-ish dollars (plus tax) this would have been a great deal, add in the additional $18 for the clips not so much. What could have been done instead is include the basic clips for one particular build, then have sets of 20 (or 40, or whatever) of the individual style clips that people could buy so they can tailor their purchase more. so in other words, they could buy a pack of L clips, or the T clips at a cheaper price ($6-7 a piece). That would be more enticing to me as a consumer versus having to buy a full box of clips when I might only want the I clips. Why spend two times over the amount for something I don't really want to use. Still have the combo set but make the $18 a discounted price and maybe sell the singles at a slightly elevated price.

I would gladly pay a little more for something I was going to use then pay a lot for something I wasn't even going to use half of. On the other hand some people would pay a 'discounted' price if they thought they were getting the better deal on the combo pack if they might use it down the line. It is a win-win there as you get a bit more for the 'hassle' of selling the single style packs and making what you expect on the 'value' multi-pack.

Now I also love the versitility of this product but worry about the wear and tear of building up and tearing down for different builds. I have seen other products like this (though put in a new way, you are not the originator or this. just originator in this 'field') where the cardstock starts to flay, rub, etc... Once again as a consumer, If I have to lay this amount of money down (yes it is not too expensive all in all, but in todays economy it is not cheap either), I would want assurances on it lasting. Hence I will opt for more expensive, albeit static, terrain for both durability and appearence. You product does look great, but not to the level as something that was supposed to stay that way, plus you don't have a ton of little clips around.

That being said, until these issues are addressed with at least a statement about durability, the issue about the clips, and the future of the product, I will most in likely not put my hard earned money into this product when I can buy the materials for the same amount of one box plus clips and produce enough for the three boxes you have here.

I know time is money, but what I make for my personal table at home looks just as good image wise, has texture to it and not just a smooth surface, and will be more durable. Which all in all was really sad, because once again, when I first seen this I was super excite about this good looking, very portable product that I could have taken with me to blay on a friends dining room table if for some reason he couldn't come over and play on my game table.

I truely and honestly hope you address these issues as I would like to become a customer, but when it comes to these extra costs I perfer to keep it down and put that money into other parts of the hobby, my bank account, or my kids' college fund.

Edit: Their is one flaw in the system I'd like to point out too while I am at it. If you have a multi-teired building made and have things going on in various levels, this setup is not very user friendly unless you have an addition table to set the upper tiers on, thus one would probably want to limit themselves to building no more then a two story building and not that many at that.

Personally, I've come around to having the clips sold in their own packs. I think that will work out in my best interest by giving me finer control over what I buy. That said, I can easily see this decision putting off other would-be customers. Perhaps not to the sweeping degree that some are imagining, but to some degree for sure.

On the other hand, if the clips were bundled, I can't imagine that putting anyone off the first round of TC. (Maybe later, but not yet - no one has clips yet!) Perhaps the higher price would slow sales, but moving the expense to a separate purchase doesn't really help. Anyone smart enough to buy two components can add the prices together.

This wouldn't have been such a big deal if you hadn't originally advertised that clips were included. In particular, I'm concerned about people who pre-ordered a year ago, and will soon be getting no clips. They will not be amused. They will tell people. I think that it's vital that these people be informed.

As it was noted before, Denny, we only rant because we care.

Hey ranting is healthy! Rant away people...you know, with a healthy respect, constructive criticism and friendly tone...lol.

TerraClips isn't for everyone, nor should it be. There's a lot of fish in the terrain sea and a lot of personal preferences to one format or the other. We're just happy to provide an alternative to those who don't have the time but want the same effect as more robust solutions. Its fast, it looks good on the table and it offers that same sense of creative freedom that more modular systems entail. TerraClips is also a very cost effective alternative balanced against other options.

Anyway, we hope that TerraClips will find its feet with the people who need it most

I like the fact that the clips come seperately.
That way I can buy a set number of clips that will be enough to fill my table with terrain (say, 5 boxes) and have enough clips for all the TerraClips sets that may be released down the road.
If each new set had clips in it I'd end up with tons of clips I'll never need.

My guess is if the line takes off, which I think we all hope it will, there will be a few different types of sets:
1. Beginner sets: Everything (including clips) to build a few or many sets.
2. Builder Sets: Just board, or just clips. One style with lots of the basics
3. Specialty Sets: Build some sort of specialty item (a temple, or an iconic building). Maybe just for promotions, but all spice.

WWG decided to start with #2 instead of #1 -- I think it makes the task a little harder, but hopefully this is still a runaway success. Let's all help get the word out about the separate clips -- both before and after launch.
Steve