Hi Folks,

A lot of people came to check out our first miniatures KickStarter and felt that it was far too complex. We're asking folks to come back and take a second look as we've basically overhauled the entire campaign.

Tidal Wave KickStarter

I know there is another thread floating around which our old campaign was mentioned in, but I just wanted to start a fresh thread for those that might be skipping over the old thread.

The biggest news is; thanks to our new reputable manufacturer we are able to lower our goal, which should mean we're able to achieve said goal much more easily. We've done away with exact shipping, and incorporated flat rates (except with one particular pledge level intended for small orders). Most importantly, we've done away with the Credit System and simplified as much as we could, while leaving everything as customizable as possible.

As the campaign goes on we will be adding more pledge levels, but we have 2 that we want to mention upfront.

DIY'r TIDAL WAVE :: For people that like to paint their own minis we have the $15 Two Fer One which gets you a full unpainted set of Tidal Wave as a bonus just for ordering a full unpainted set! This is 16 minis for $15.

TIDAL WAVE :: For people, like me, that like everything already pre-painted we have the $25 "buy what you want" and get a free set of all 8 alternate painted Tidal Wave minis as a bonus! This is a minimum of 16 pre-painted minis for $25.

The launch centralizes around a nautical theme, but as the campaign goes on we plan to branch out in to various other themes. The next two sets have already been revealed in our updates.

Update #1

If you're into print n play games, we also have our FREE downloadable Dungeon Crawler Labyrinth game as part of our campaign. There's also our fantasy story mode expandible card game which we have on special until the end of Halloween.

Update #3

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

Note to all concerned: I've removed a series of argumentative posts from the original thread, and am restoring it to public view and giving it a second chance.

NO MORE FIGHTY WORDS.

That is all. Carry on.

Thank you for restoring our thread.

We hope you will take a look at our campaign.

Hey look at that, an endorsement from ReaperBryan!

http://www.reapermini.com/forum/index.php?/topic/46340-bones-kickstarter-a-massive-loss/page__st__90#entry648963

I will say that I am personally struggling to find the funds to back this, but I am hoping to do so. Even if I end up not being able to back it, I will likely pick up some of the minis at a later date.

Hey Talae,

I don't know your exact financial situation so this may not be doable, but I'll mention it.

If you pledge the $15, it'll get you 1 of each of the figures unpainted.

We won't be charging shipping until the KS is ready to ship, which depending on the size of the KS will be 6 months to 1 year from the end of the campaign.

Perhaps that makes it more approachable.

It is definitely more approachable, but my gaming budget is really THAT tight right now. I only post about it because it is a possibility and one that I am hopeful for. Don't count me out just yet.

Is it likely that you will be giving this Kickstarter a third try if this attempt fails?

I actually do like the concept drawings for the figures, my objections were never to that portion.

I think that you do need to have more figures available for the first round of any further KS - make it worth folks buying more miniatures in the opening round.

I really like the look of the Huge Water Elemental Lord, the Mermaid, the Ghost Hound, and the Jellyshroom.

The human sized figures... I would want to see first - I have never seen a Huge Water Elemental in real life, nor a Ghost Dog, nor yet a Jellyshroom. There is a lot of room for artistic freedom. Humans I see every day, so there is less room for error. (Nothing to do with you - I hated the human figures in the D&DM sets. Not even worth repainting. So, I am leery of PPM humans and the like.) Plus, people miniatures... I got lots.

The flip side is that folks that do not have a trunk full of miniatures would likely find the pirates to be the most useful part of the set. (I am sure that there must be at least one or two people that do not have several thousand miniatures in their collections....)

I was planning on two Water Elemental Lords, and one each of the Ghost Hound, Mermaid, and Jellyshroom before choking.

The Auld Grump

Hey Auld Grump,

Having more figures in the initial offering (plus adding those figures to the moulds and having them manufactured) would mean having a higher goal.

If this campaign doesn't make it, we'll likely take a break to rework everything and will come back with a new offering in the spring (but, not Tidal Wave).

This is what we want to do as a company, so our interests are still very much alive.

I backed the project. I figure I will find the funds somewhere. I might have to skip lunch for a month or something, but I really want a decent amount of pirates to choose from in my collection.

Maybe steal some food, but say "yar" when you do it... it's more polite!

(thank you)

I am just trying to figure out what he is eating for $0.50 - $1.00 per day for lunch.

Ramen. 5 Packs of it.

Hmmm, yes, a larger starting variety would definitely up the starting goal.

That said, eight miniatures will have a harder time standing out. Heck, Reaper got off to a slow start with their initial offering - it wasn't until there were almost a hundred minis that interest really sparked. And they started with thirty plastic minis (and a succubus on a motorcycle).

And their starting goal was lower.

I know - not quite the same product - yours are aimed at the pre-painted miniatures crowd - but that crowd is, I think, pretty caught up in the Pathfinder minis right now. (I could be wrong - I don't but PPM - I did look at the first random set for Pathfinder, but that was because I was painting them for others.)

Also, Reaper is a biggish company (but not that big, really - I have seen their plant). They can absorb a bigger chunk of the costs. And they were willing and able to have some loss leaders to bring in more folks.

So, you need a reason for folks to buy more of your initial offerings - I do not think that folks will want a few dozen of the same eight figures.

I very much liked that you have the Raw figures. They are my preference - but again, I have no idea as to how my preference stacks up against the general plastic buying crowd.

I very much like the fact that you have a theme. The initial Pathfinder Battles set seemed kind of... amorphous. Did well, being tied to Pathfinder, but it lacked any theme. The next two PB sets were tied to adventure paths, so I think someone at either WizKids or Paizo noticed.

And that theme brings me to another option - perhaps this would do better with a board game attached? Still offer the individual figures, but come up with something to draw in folks. Perhaps only sell the individual models to folks that have bought the boardgame.

I have bought boardgames through Kickstarter - Zombicide and Dwarven Adventurers. My main reason to get them was for the minis. The boardgame is just an extra. I have played Zombicide, and will likely play Dwarven Adventurers as well. But the reason I bought the games, and the addons, was for the minis. And to buy the extra zeds I had to buy the main game for Zombicide.

Maybe offer two levels of Boardgame - painted and unpainted? Test the waters, see if it a better investment for painted or Raw.

Rambling now, so....

The Auld Grump

Not bad ideas, and certainly thoughts we've also had. I'm hardcore PPM collector, so I'm an anomaly as a buyer. I'll buy anywhere from 1-24 of any one figure!

Our hope wasn't to get people that wanted multiples of the same 8 minis, it was to get a bunch of low level backers (around 2,000) that only wanted 1-2 copies of each, then we'd have been golden. It's a small fraction of the people in the market, which we could still get support from, if can find the right social network support.

We do offer a free Print N Play board game in the campaign called Labyrinth (don't know if you noticed that), we will be stating the figures that do make it to manufacturing with scenarios. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dungeoncrawler/dungeon-crawler-minis-dcm-tidal-wave-redeux#DungCrawLabyDcl

Now, a physical board game, could make a huge difference - but, will raise the costs. So, it would have to be approached differently. We could offer a board game with unpainted, and then offer upgrades for painted or Add-ons for paints. All good ideas.

Should we consider doing kickstarter down the road we have a lot of suggestions to work with.

I would be more interested if I could get some of your original minis with this deal. I would love to see Nats of the vines and tentacles.

We haven't made the tentacles in natural, I wish we could include the other sets as well to bolster our offer, it's just not available to us.

I'm a huge geekfan of Larry Elmore's and he just backed us = nerdgasm!

How COOL!

Bumping this up again, looks like if need a LOT more support to reach target.
help out if you can please.
A supporter.

Right there with you. I bumped my pledge to the highest I could. (more than triple what I had planned a couple of weeks ago). Wish I could give more.

I suspect this is suffering from Reaper-Bone syndrome. That kickstarter sucked the market pretty dry both in terms of $ and people's mini painting time (not to mention distorting expectations of cost/mini). It's going to take the mini market a while to recover and in the meanwhile other perfectly good initiatives, like this one, just have to hang in there and hope for the recognition they deserve.

I disagree. There have been a bunch of miniatures Kickstarters after the Reaper - just off the top of my head: Otherworld, Damsels of Dark-something, Bombshell Babes, Demons & Devils, Tentacles & Eyeballs, Judge Dredd, Alien Assimilation, Chibi & Relic Knights. I know there have been a bunch more, too.

I think the big factor is $$. A couple of those were $20k goals, but most were $10k goals or less. Also, most of those had some kind of name recognition. Tidal Wave is asking for big money (in minis terms, at least), with not a big established fan base or lots of cred.


Also, and I don't mean to be unfair, but I also that Tidal Wave lacks a certain oomph. Most of the projects I mentioned have a differentiator, something unique that really generates excitement. Tidal Wave is kind of generic - which Reaper did already cover and crush. Sure, TW has the elemental, but to me, that's really the only thing that goes "WOW" off the page.


I hope GH and crew are able to look at their business model and find a project that works for them, but I think that price point is a killer.

There is one big difference between TW and others, we're offering pre-painted. This drives our costs up quite a bit. We're also doing injection moulding, not resin, which means a much higher starting point.

What Robby is saying is pretty undeniable, there are lots of projects out there getting funded, while people are passing us by. It may be the big goal, it may be subject matter.

Our subject matter is intended to be generic, which may very well be what's killing the "wow" factor. We're looking at filling in gaps.

I'm glad to have found a lot of supporters that I didn't know about, no matter what happens with TW, it will have been a learning experience for certain.

I just had a 2 page 1-on-1 conversation on another hobby site about how backwards our business model is. Basically we're offering discounts on product for those backers that spend more - instead we should offer extras. Well, basically, if we get funding we have HUGE lot of minis that will be shipped over, so we're able to give away some of that lot without losing anything - because we have a minimum order we need to fill (however, if we add extras we need to raise more funds to cover those extras). So, how do you decide who to give that to? Usually, you give it to your highest supporters. It was a very long discussion, where at times I felt my business integrity and very intellect was being questioned at times. In the end though, I had a very deep understanding of where this fellow was coming from, and it made an impact, much like many of the conversations and personal messages I've received over the last few months.

Either way, we have enough information that we can make another attempt down the road.

On the 'generic'....

No, I very much doubt that is what is killing this. One of the things that had folks grabbing the Bones was that very same generic factor - things that can be used in a wide spectrum of games. 'Wow' was not a factor in regards to the miniatures, only in regards to the sheer number.

I think the biggest killer, both as cause and why it is harder to do, is variety - you just didn't have enough there.

That was the whole point of the Bones Kickstarter - and why the Legendary Encounters line is ailing. Reaper realized that they need to broaden the line.

Legendary Encounters did okay when it started, but there are threads on this very forum of folks irritated by the lack of variety. Sales were never what they had hoped for, and then they dropped. (Reaper was also of the opinion that there was no market for unpainted plastic minis... they may have been a bit off on that one.)

You need too many people buying little amounts - with no real drive for folks to jump in. It is a lot easier to find a figure you want/need/lust after if there are eighty than if there are eight.

As an example, I might well purchase Big and Watery, Raw, in a store. I might buy as many as three of him at a reasonable price. ($9 - $12 range each, not $4 - $5 range - reasonable needs to go both ways.) Most folks would be looking at only one, if any. He is something for GMs. (That may well be a given in any event. I don't know about other folks - but as GM my gaming spending is an order of magnitude greater than my players'. The exceptions are folks that buy for wargaming.)

I have no need for the humans, and am leery of them - I have seen very few PPM humans that looked halfway decent, even repainted. I was looking at a $15 purchase, $30 after the postage, none of them humie gits.

You were going to need a lot of folks buying if all that they were getting is two or three miniatures

The high starting goal likely made folks less likely to pledge - folks are more likely to pledge for something that they think will success. Once it is assured then pledging, on items with stretch goals, generally increases.

Having stretch goals might have helped. Folks wanting to see what is next worked wonders for Bones and the Demons & Devils miniatures line - with a fair number of folks increasing their pledges.

I did so on the Bones Kickstarter - adding another $200. I know someone that pledged $500! (Oy!) I also know a store owner that pledged for the Undertaker level X3, but that is not the same. Gods, he was plugging the Kickstarter - offering 10% off on Bones to folks that pledged, and taking pre-orders out of his Undertaker order on a first come first served basis. Roughly a quarter of the order will be gone before it hits the shelves.

I still say that your postage is a real deal killer - more likely than not losing you most of the folks that were interested. I honestly think that doubling the cost for the minis and having free shipping would have brought you closer to your goal. I know that you were trying to keep down the amount on the Kickstarter, but....

Added to the low number of miniatures... it was a hard sell. I don't know if you could have made it with free shipping and doubled price, I just think that you would have been closer.

***

On a different tack - Some Questions:

Are folks more interested in the PPM or the Raw? (I am pegged at Raw - my interest in PPM is negligible.) Do more folks want PPM, do more folks want the Raw, are there two extremes, or are most folks a mix?

How many figures in the opening round is enough?

Was postage as big a deal as I think that it was?

What is a reasonable starting goal?

You may want to have polls in various game sites asking those questions.

Another question: How would dropping the paint affect the price of the Kickstarter? (Not the price per miniature - the overall goal.) Perhaps making painted minis the first Stretch Goal would help.

Ah well, I need to paint two nekkid succubi on motorcycles, with a third waiting to see how I do on the first one....

The Auld Grump

My personal thought on my choices were that I would prefer pre-painted, but will go for raw when there is a significant savings. It is just tough to justify painting more than what is coming from Reaper. That being said, in this case I was going to go with unpainted.

Yeah, I am facing March with joyful trepidation. I am a painter from waaaay back, and even I face that box of doom with fear.

The Auld Grump

We now believe if the goal is low enough, variety won't matter as much.


Agreed, I saw this as well.


Well, agreed, it just wasn't possible to offer that many sculpts out the gate, the goal would've been insane!


This we knew.


We had stretch goals... I'm guessing you didn't get that far in to our campaign?


I can agree with this. No one likes getting charged twice, this will change should we sally forth again.


I'm PPM all the way. My wife is willing to paint (and she's really good).


Can't say, I'm guessing it depends what is offered. I've seen success with just 1 figure in some campaigns.


I'll abstain.


I'd say reasonable, although high - granted I'm looking at the costs and we were shaving ourselves real close to the goody bag.


Not a bad idea. Not sure I'd get a hold of people that didn't pledge already though.


Someone else suggested this, and I like it. Dropping the painted version in round 1 might be the better course to take.

Have fun with Sophie (I was one of the few that swapped her out for other goodies).

We're entering the last weekend of our campaign this weekend, it's good to see some new faces backing us.

This is just a reminder about the campaign and to give 1 final push this weekend. Take a look at the Refer-A-Friend deal we have in place, and just a reminder the shipping won't be charged until the minis are ready to ship.

Hope to see you all across the finish line!

http://kck.st/VrcxY0