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line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() WorldWorksGames • View topic - I need some GM help with my players
Post subject: Re: I need some GM help with my players
Posted: 05-05-2013, 02:49 PM
Boiler Joined: 04-28-2010, 02:54 PM Posts: 276
I think the best way to go with this sort of group would be to focus on situations that require a quick decision - for example, the bridge they are on is collapsing. Do they cross the bridge into unknown territory, or retreat back to the lands they are familiar with, knowing that their goal is on the other side? They can't sit still and wait 20 minutes for someone to speak up - if they do (say, after 5 minutes), the bridge crumbles, dropping them in the river below and carries them to the next plot bit automatically.
After that, make sure you give them some sort of 'plot hook' indicator. Don't just say, "This guy looks like he has a quest, why don't you talk to him?" - instead, make sure that the players know about and are willing to check the Village Post (the post in the middle of town where passerby often leave up short notes or work requests), or the tavern bounty board. Whenever they pull something from one of those, have them meet with the quest giver (usually in the tavern, but could be at another location if fitting the scenario), and have them RP the meeting. Make sure that you outline what the group needs to complete the quest without them having to do anything, but keep a couple interesting tidbits that could really help the group out so that they feel rewarded for asking the right questions.
The final thing I can think of off the cuff is to go a few rounds of Fiasco with them. Fiasco is a wonderful rules-light Storytelling game that focuses on roleplaying unique and interesting characters, and should get the non-RPers in the group on the same page for thinking things out in character rather than in numbers - plus, it gives them a chance to understand that sometimes, bad things will happen to your character, so you might as well enjoy it. It also is easy to learn and sets up quickly (little prep on your part, too! Just print out a couple copies of the play set and you're ready to go).
One last thing, for your end - don't be afraid to jump the rails and just make it up as you go along. You'll either get back on track, or you'll spin further and further away from what's been written and into your own variation of the setting - which is when things really start getting fun. Throw in some things that really strike your fancy (or you know will strike your group's fancy), and just see where it will take you. Worst that will happen is the group will appreciate the rails a bit more, and be more ready to follow them next time you play.
Post subject: Re: I need some GM help with my players
Posted: 05-05-2013, 02:57 PM
Boiler Joined: 11-20-2007, 11:17 PM Posts: 353
Thanks for the advice!
Before I digest your post, I had one more thought. Another element is that the players are all newbies and being ultra polite to one another. They're looking for consensus in the group (and may be looking to the dominant personality: my roommate) and devolve into that "what pizza you want? I dunno, what do you want?" scenario.
Post subject: Re: I need some GM help with my players
Posted: 05-05-2013, 03:16 PM
Boiler Joined: 04-28-2010, 02:54 PM Posts: 276
Yeah, and that's only going to be fixed by experience. Really, I think, there are two ways that you could solve the issue - go Rules First, and get everyone comfortable with the rules of the game (feat selection, tactics, etc), and then work on getting everyone up to speed on how roleplaying works, or you could focus on RP first (which it sounds like you want), then focus on getting them comfortable with the way the rules work.
From what you've said, I'd suggest picking up a copy of Fiasco and running a few games with the group. It will really get them in the mindset of roleplaying a character (and not necessarily the sort of character that they'd normally play - from my three plays, I've run the head steward of a ship that was planning on a bit of sabotage, the wolf form of a werewolf who was targeted for assassination, and a bumbling wizard with a brother who hated him - for the record, I tend to prefer playing the straight-laced guardian who fights to keep the group from harm). Really, well worth the price of the book, and I think just the thing your group needs to get comfortable with the idea of roleplaying (just make sure that your friend doesn't try to take on the role of director and tell everyone else what to do through the course of the game!)
[Pre Post Edit] I know where you're coming from with that (and one of the reasons I almost never run a module myself). However, don't let that stop you from going off the track and seeing what happens. If you get things back in order, great, but if they never get back to the way they're written, you still have a wonderful storyline that you've come up with. Believe it or not, your players likely won't really know that you've jumped the rail unless they read it later, and you'll likely find the extra freedom it gives you extremely liberating (somewhat overwhelming at times - especially if you accidentally draw near a TPK - but extremely liberating).
In short, let it develop organically. If you can keep to the storyline, great, but if you can't, run with it. Maybe you'll get it on track, and maybe you'll end up with something all your own. Either way, it should be a fun ride (and don't forget - you can always build the tracks to intercept the group somewhere down the road!).
One thing that can really tie a party together: Give them somebody to hate.
Someone that does them dirty early on, shows up to rub their faces in the dirt, and just be a thorn in their sides.
I will admit... the last time I tried this things didn't... work out as planned.
The BBEG Magus - lich paralyzed some of the party, petrified others, and left the cleric wounded, but with wands of stone to flesh and heal paralysis... and a letter thanking them for the good time.
The net result is that they want to turn the lich from his evil ways - that he didn't just kill 'em, stone 'em, and leave 'em has been taken to mean that he has a plan, is willing to do harm to achieve that plan, but is willing to limit the damage that he does do....
So, they want to find the evil lich and... talk him down, not take him down. Even the paladin seems to think that the guy is redeemable....
This is in the teens game - the kids are enjoying the game, so I am willing to let this part go where they want it to go.
He is not the real villain - his sword is....
The Auld Grump
Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit.
Post subject: Re: I need some GM help with my players
Posted: 05-05-2013, 05:34 PM
Boiler Joined: 11-20-2007, 12:08 PM Posts: 234
One of the things that took me a long time to realize is that too many choices is a bad thing. Everyone is at the table for the same reason, to play a game. It is ultimately unnecessary, then, to role play the meet-up in the tavern, or the search for a quest, unless you have several to choose from. I would suggest just starting the session with a quick blurb about the mission the PC's are on. "OK, you have all been hired by the Duke to rescue his daughter from the dragon in the mountains, after several days of travel you find yourselves at the entrance to the dragon's lair, you think you hear the slow even breaths of a large creature just inside the entrance. Player one, what do you do?" Don't give players choices that they don't really have. You know what you have prepared, the players know that you have something prepared. Haggling with the Duke over the price of his daughter is only fun for a little while, but you still have to rescue her from the dragon. Also, if there is key information needed to complete a quest/job/adventure, give it to them. If they have to roll for it, Murphy will make them all fail the role, virtually every time. I'm sure some one can back me up on this.
Post subject: Re: I need some GM help with my players
Posted: 05-06-2013, 01:20 AM
WorldWorks Moderator Joined: 09-30-2006, 12:34 AM Posts: 3934 Location: New Zealand
Good advice all round, especially about setting things up so they don't have many choices and have to make them quickly.
If in doubt drop a (seemingly) random attack on the party out of the blue. There's nothing like the GM suddenly calling for everyone to "roll for initiative" to get players paying attention and getting on with the game. When the attack is over the players can discover it was all a case of mistaken identity (e.g. one of the characters looked like the person the attackers were after) - but by that time the players are well and truly hooked and won't be able to resist finding out where the attackers came from and what they were after. From there its a trail of breadcrumbs leading straight down the throat of the adventure you want to run.
Also +1 to Magius' suggestion of running a Fiasco session or two. It's a fun game and will prompt the wary players to develop their characters. The setup at the start of Fiasco is so good my gaming group has adopted it as standard practice when creating new characters and/or party for our adventures (the GM provides options to fit the setting/adventure).
Moderator posts are in green oraquamarine. My posts are my personal opinion only and do not represent the official view of WorldWorksGames.
Post subject: Re: I need some GM help with my players
Posted: 05-06-2013, 05:17 AM
Gear Head Joined: 04-01-2010, 04:34 AM Posts: 683
Observations.
You don't have bad players. None of them. Heck, I tend to be the Type 1 player, but I have learned to ask they GM, "Hey, do you mind if I stat up my gypsy brothers? Are there any guidelines you would like me to stay within?"
He has learned to give me stuff to do. "Hey, TK, I need a 2' x 2' cabin made out of the WWG cardstock terrain for a game in about 2 months. You think you could build that up for me?"
I agree with what has been said about giving too many options, and giving time limits. The crumbling bridge is a perfect example....go forward, go back, or procrastinate and fall. Give them a little more information than you think you should. "The BBEG's Lieutenant is holed up in a cabin in the woods. After interrogating his underling, you know that he is going to leave there in 5 hours. It's going to take you over 4 hours to get there." If they procrastinate, the Lieutenant has left before they got there. If they make a quick decision, and get out there quickly, reward them! "Hey you get out there, and find the cabin. The guy is sitting in a chair on the deck. He looks like he is asleep."
Roleplaying is a learned thing. Get them to understand the rules, what they can and cannot do, and give them some simple things to do. Maybe they don't want to roleplay. Maybe they just want' to roll dice and kill things.
Even after 9 years of playing with the group I play with, we're still learning what people like, don't like, who's going to take control in a situation, who is going to do what.
Post subject: Re: I need some GM help with my players
Posted: 05-06-2013, 02:55 PM
Boiler Joined: 06-01-2009, 11:22 AM Posts: 394 Location: U.S. Colorado
You could just give your roomie what he wants. All of it. In torrents.
What I am suggesting, is to make him the GM w/o telling him. As him what he want to do, where he wants to go, what happens when he gets there, what does he get when he "wins". Put them on the tracks and let him lay the track. Assuming he is not a total idiot he will quickly realize what you are doing. Just tell him he has to allow you to do your part so he can do his. Or, he can do both your jobs.
The other two, they want a railroad. Limited on and off ramps. Dungeons are great for this. Later after some experience, they might want to play in the sandbox. Either way they will not be much of a problem, except for the relationship they have with #1.
Sorry if this don't work, I just don't have much time for bossy people who act rude as well.
Are you running a module or AP? Your original post says something about "...running Runelords..." but it's not 100% clear. If you're new to GMing and new to Pathfinder, I highly recommend using modules or an AP at the start. They do all the work in setting up plotlines, enemies, situations, and point out the special rules that apply to each. Oftimes, they're on rails, too, so it helps to keep a party that's not focused/driven pointed in the right direction.
I agree with most of what other folks have said. Knowing your players helps you to tailor the campaign. If they're not good at making decisions or coming up with their own ideas on how to address a situation, then give them fewer options or spell out the specific options they have, even if it's not 100% realistic. And sometimes you can give them a set of choices and in the end it doesn't really matter which they choose, but they still get to make the choice.
Example: I was running an underdark campaign a few years ago where 1/2 the party was playing drow and the rest were their servants/retainers/bodyguards. They ended up having to flee someplace using a portal and it dumped quite far from their home city. I told them that they knew of regularly used portals to their home in 3 "nearby" locations. Each choice would require travel and its own risks due to the terrain and creatures that lived nearby. I had previously planned out 4 encounters for them to face along the way no matter which route they took. I planned 3 additional ones that were each specific to 1 of the routes available. In the end, they got to make a choice, but it didn't make all that much difference. They didn't know that, so it still felt like their decision mattered.
I also like to remind myself of something useful that someone on these forums posted about a few years ago: It might be more than you really want to put into your GMing, but it always reminds me that clues are often lost or missed by players.
Post subject: Re: I need some GM help with my players
Posted: 05-07-2013, 01:00 AM
Boiler Joined: 12-14-2009, 08:08 AM Posts: 215 Location: Lichfield, UK
Hey, at least you're playing! And everyone seems to be having fun.
Experience for all of you will help immensely, and the fact that you are talking out your issues, rather than killing off your roommate's character is good!
OK, specific help from some of your points above.
1. Keeping track of the NPC names. I have a sheet of A4, that as the players meet someone I write down who they are (name), a little about them (1 line max), and where the players 1st met them. The latter is really important as the players haven't read the plot, so their point of view is what you have to keep going back to. And you'll find a lot of the time, they'll be saying "we go back to that guy in the marketplace who gave us the good deal on armour", or "does she look like the portrait girl who died 100 years ago at that place we were researching?" and you'll know what they mean.
2. Keeping up with the lies. I know exactly what you mean! It's hard! What I do is either record the session on audio, and listen to it just before we play again, or write notes just after we've finished. And asking one of the players to sum up what happened last time can be really interesting, and give you a completely different slant on their perception of the story.
Most everything else has been mentioned, and never forget that you as the GM have control, and if you want that RUnelord dead, he is (though of course now you need to go back through the plot & change all the references!)
Finally, I'd also try & listen to people playing various different games. Oh and if there's a convention in your area, go to that. Seeing/hearing how other people play can really help too!
Post subject: Re: I need some GM help with my players
Posted: 05-07-2013, 03:35 AM
COG Joined: 02-15-2012, 11:10 AM Posts: 179 Location: Oregon
there are several things that you can do to manage unruly players.
the know it all can be tied up by giving him an actual research projects, the party discovers a scroll, a ancient tomb, library whatever then actually hand him a several page document that has a few clues spread around in it, so that he has to quietly sit there and study the document.
dream sequence, one of my favorite stunts quieting a too talkative player. I make a dream sequence tape for a few characters in the party ( the ones that I want to keep quieter) the dream story can be bizarre , and funny, but it's filled with clues and hints at upcoming events, kind of the future premonition dream. I usually just think of an idea with the player and the future event that I'm planning in mind and start talking, usually a dream story is about 4 up to 10 min. long, whenever I need to put that player out of action, I tell the character that they're falling into a lucid faint, I hand him the tape recorder and the headset and they sit there and listen to the dream sequence.
NPC, sometimes you can manage a player through creating subplot drama with a NPC, often in my campaigns there will be an NPC with the party, this NPC could be a deity disguising himself as an old man, young child etc. or can be a rancorous nuisance to the party, and interrupt the player characters monologue whenever necessary.
Creating subplot drama within the party, I often will take a player aside and give them some subplot drama for example, they learn that the magician in their party was involved in the raid that killed one of their loved ones, or that they are distant relatives, are that they both have a shared goal, or there is sexual tension between them, I'd encourage the player to role-play out this information in the group.
Rewards and punishments, I let all my players know, that good role-playing, reduced meta-gaming discussion, and group cooperation, are always results in rewards, and that the reverse results in punishments. After all GM is a GOD MAN . In a few extreme cases I had to beat or magic a player character unconscious and have him quietly lay there through the encounter, and then stay unconscious until they could get him, to a monastery,or healer to get proper care. with the healer NPC, giving the advice not the GM to the player. There is all sorts of ways to role-play in the game to communicate to the player to adjust their behavior.
magical items, the staff/sword/item of silent wisdom, the energy of the item is depleted, when the character speaks too much or foolishly the simpler and wiser of the words of the character the more powerful the magic item becomes. ( this way you can regulate the dialogue of a unruly player and train them with a immediate reward punishment thermometer)
there's others but I've got to get back to work hope this helps this helps
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