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| 4 hour 4e EPIC fail http://www.worldworksgames.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=8490 |
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| Author: | tiles [ 06-20-2010, 08:51 PM ] |
| Post subject: | 4 hour 4e EPIC fail |
| Author: | Talae [ 06-20-2010, 09:29 PM ] |
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| Author: | sunraven01 [ 06-21-2010, 02:55 AM ] |
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Five players is a normal sized group, not a larger one 
Were your monster defenses too high? Too many rounds of misses from your players will really slow the action down, especially if you boost hit points on the monsters as well. Are you using the encounter design guidelines in the DMG? |
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| Author: | llyrghmnghyll [ 06-21-2010, 04:26 AM ] |
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4e is sensitive, it's easy to misread). I recommend playing a simple module or prebuilt encounter or two before foraying off into your own territory. Overbuilding enemies can result in serious problems. I have had the unfortunate experience of playing through some encounters which simply took way too long (longest encounter 2 1/2 sessions 6hour sessions, with a pathetic 220 exp for 8th level characters). My advice is never go more than 2 levels over the PCs for your enemies (and keep those to 1 - 2). Watch out for overly difficult monsters (swarms tend to be overly difficult). don't build anything over 20% of what the characters need to level (i.e. @ 3rd level stay under 300pts of experience per character) Another thing which can drag out an encounter is not having all your roles filled. with 5 characters you should definitely have 1 of at least every archtype: leader, Striker, Defender, and controller. Hybrids are O.K. for maybe a controller, Striker, or 5th character build, but you need a dedicated Leader (for healing purposes) and dedicated Defender (for drawing off attacks). Without a controller you won't have enough ways to deal with large groups of minions. Strikers are necessary for dealing enough damage. Defenders are necessary for drawing attacks away from your striker so they can deal damage. Without a leader your group simply won't heal fast enough to survive. For build purposes your characters should be reasonably min-maxed. Your defender ought to have a 19-21 defense at 3rd level. your characters ought to have at least an 8-10 attack (leaders can be slightly lower). If your Defender, Striker and controller don't have any stats above 16 that can be pretty negative. Also until you and your Players gain the feel for a system it is likely to take 2 - 2 1/2 hours for an encounter. This will gradually go down to about 1 hour for a basic encounter. It's a good system, but I've definitely seen issues with modifying before the system was played through. Good Luck. |
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| Author: | knowbuddyuno [ 06-21-2010, 06:53 AM ] |
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When I want to make tougher encounters for the players, I sometimes increase monster damage or give them high-damage powers with low recharge. The monsters become a big threat, but they still die about as fast as other monsters. That way the encounter is more dangerous without being longer. Did the two monsters have regeneration or healing abilities? Were their defenses too high for players to hit? Those are pretty common culprits, in my experience. Some of the more enjoyable encounters my players have had featured elite or boss brutes and their cronies. The brutes have very high damage, but their chance to hit is pretty low, which makes each roll suspenseful. Also, with the brutes' low defenses, the players' attacks tend to hit often. High hp brutes can take a while to kill, but they inevitably go down, if the party survives their attacks. |
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| Author: | Halcy [ 06-21-2010, 08:08 AM ] |
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| Author: | Ravebomb [ 06-21-2010, 08:30 AM ] |
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| Author: | Nekokoneko [ 06-21-2010, 10:15 AM ] |
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| Author: | Talae [ 06-21-2010, 10:50 AM ] |
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| Author: | UHF [ 06-21-2010, 11:05 AM ] |
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| Author: | tiles [ 06-21-2010, 03:24 PM ] |
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wow! thanks for the responce! I can see where I went wrong.....basically everywhere! Three hours into my encounter I knew half of my mistakes, but the die was cast and we stick to the rules as a rule. First I will expose myself to you warts and all....Location of encounter; I used himm streets to create a battle pit north of the town square. The streets drop down one level to creat a deadend shaped like a "T". Its a place where any number of players can show up anf fight monsters/convicts/teams for cash or championship belts (ala WWE) in front of roaring crowds. (thanks WWG for a awsome product thats lets me build this stuff on the fly!) There are moveing staircases (randomly) that reach upper platforms, and six moveable street lamps that the players and DM control (three each, activated by a 1d4 roll). Now, the players, assasin, ranger,warlock,warlord,wizard. All new 4e charactors for us, third level. (When i said "larger group" last time I ment larger than the 2-3 players in my last 4e nights). We are new to 4e so we are aware we are going to make many newbi mistakes. Lastly, the monsters, (I'm going to get RIPPED for this but..) a Grick 7th level brute 96hp, AND.......... (sigh) a hook horror. level thirteen soldier 138hp. I dropped the Hook's AC to 20 , his damage down to 1d12+7 and his hit bonus to +8. Again sigh. So, there you have it. I see now some glaring errors on my part, I really thought they would play much better... On a possitive note, combat was really fun, there was drama, and a great finish. Next time MINONS |
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| Author: | llyrghmnghyll [ 06-21-2010, 04:42 PM ] |
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If your players want to keep the same characters I recommend lowering the upper level of damage and attack of your enemies and raising their HP. 3 strikers can make quick work of a lot of stuff but without a defender they can fall faster than a kobold in a dragon's den. |
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| Author: | Bob_Runnicles [ 06-21-2010, 08:29 PM ] |
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Presumably you have the Monster Manual; most of the entries there give a variety of groups that would typically work together to make an interesting encounter. I know I've run 4e with seven players (although after taking six months of monthly games to play through Rescue At Rivenroar I was not displeased to see the group drop to five for chapter 2!) and the key is to keep close track of the initiative order and keep things moving. Also, as others have said, try throwing in a bunch of minions, in my epxerience PCs really get a kick out of wiping stuff off the map 
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| Author: | tiles [ 06-21-2010, 08:42 PM ] |
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Minions are on the menu via endless vombie reinforcements. |
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| Author: | UHF [ 06-21-2010, 09:40 PM ] |
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Dear lord man. Have you no mercy? Oh the humanity! I think you have terrain down pat. Keep it up. It doesn't have to be dynamic, but there has to be more to it than a square room.... I think you figured that out. About the party... You ain't got a lot of armour there. Not a lot of area attacks either. Its kind of wimpy striker oriented. Your guys will have a a glass jaw. Sure the leader can heal them, but they are just going to get hit again. I recommend that you put some healing potions in the treasure. I recommend that they beef up their armour with magic, and perhaps in their next feat selections toughness and other stuff might help. (Toughness also increases HP gained from a healing surges.) Monsters... the best fights I DM have a variety of critters filling a variety of roles. Pretend you're building a party only its all monsters. You want a few up front, taking it from their front line, you want some artillery, and you want a controller. I graduate the difficulty of the fights where possible. So... maybe they run into all hand to hand skirmishers... next time, the skirmishers are backed by Artillery, and so on. Minions are oodles of fun. But hey... for kicks don't let them fight any for a while, then hit them with a huge swarm. See if they run! (Note... that encounter will make your Wizard shine... I hope.) Incidentally, its OK of have a knock down drag out brawl like that. |
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| Author: | Bob_Runnicles [ 06-21-2010, 09:53 PM ] |
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