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in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 122: preg_match_all(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 124: array_unique() expects parameter 1 to be array, null given [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file /includes/functions_reimg.php on line 126: Invalid argument supplied for foreach() [phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file 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Post subject: Re: [Pathfinder, 4e] Zeitgeist, by E N Publishing
Posted: 05-09-2012, 08:04 PM
Sprocket Joined: 05-09-2012, 07:59 PM Posts: 9
Grump, I'm interested to know why you categorise Zeitgeist as a railroad.
I'm running the AP now and - although there are a number of unhappy scenarios for the PCs, especially in the second adventure - I don't really see the issues you do. In fact, I personally feel that it's one of the better APs I've ever read.
It's not a sandbox (few APs are), but I don't see it as a railroad.
Maybe the fact that I have yet to run a lengthy adventure path for 4e is why I still like it. I can wing it and have combats go smoothly and not feel over mechanical (most of the time). We have had sessions where we have had four combats in six hours, but we have also had sessions where we have had no combats in six hours. I would say that on average we spend closer to 75% of the time doing the RP of RPG.
I really just need to force myself to spend the time to organize and develop what I really desire in order to have it, as it doesn't seem like I will find it.
Website for my Father: http://www.keepthespiritkilleen.com
Oh, I will admit to having a bias against 4e - one that began with comments in the preview books (Mr. Wyatt? I am looking at you!)
I like a structured system - which is why I like 3.X more than I did 1e or 2e. But, in my not at all humble opinion, 4e took it several steps too far, and tried to define what 'fun' is. And I did not like their definition in the slightest. Sometimes I do want to waltz through the faerie gates and interact with the little people. Sometimes I do want to talk to the guards at the gate.
By the sound of it, you are not married to the adventure design bible as written in the gospel of 4e. You maintain the flexibility that some of the designers tried to write out of 4e.
That lack of flexibility was also a part of their initial version of the GSL - they told folks 'our way or the highway' and were then surprised to see how much traffic there was on the highway, while their toll road had diminishing travel.
Me, I'd druther be playing Pathfinder.
The Auld Grump
Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit.
In regards to false decisions - NO they are NOT inherent to adventure paths, at least good ones. They are inherent to Zeitgeist. Zeitgeist is not a good adventure path - in large part because of exactly that reason.
4e is very much designed to reward GMs for limiting PC choices in that manner. It is a big chunk of why I would rather nail my foot to the floor and run in circles instead of running 4e. In my not at all humble opinion, 4e is a terrible RPG. It may be a decent tactical game, but not at all good outside of combat.
Leveling by adventure means that the PCs level as a group - no individual rewards. I like giving XP for when a given player does well.
I do not understand how you think lazy adventure design is a better way to go.
Remember - I am considering it as a Pathfinder adventure - that makes a big difference.
Frankly, the bar is higher on Pathfinder adventures, and Zeitgeist just does not measure up to the competition. As a whole, 4e adventures are not very good, not at all.
Done arguing - you like Zeitgeist, fine. I do not, and I have said why.
The Auld Grump, I will admit that the second adventure was better than the first, but not enough to interest me in investing in 2+ years of mediocrity.
Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit.
Post subject: Re: [Pathfinder, 4e] Zeitgeist, by E N Publishing
Posted: 05-14-2012, 12:05 PM
Dirigible Joined: 10-17-2007, 07:46 AM Posts: 1201
The strongest points for Zeitgeist\WOBS is that there is considerable variety. But clearly a railroad.
To put it bluntly, they aren't very clever about hiding it.
Pathfinder adventures are more or less the same, but they are much smarter about how they hide the rails. There is also lots more room for improvisation to suit the DM and the players. For instance, on Smuggler's Shiv you have to battle a pile of cannibals, kill a big 'ol Chupacabra, and lets not forget the evil cleric. The DM pieces out combats on the fly with the cannibals, although the DM can use a few off the shelf descriptions. There are plenty of other entertaining bits to keep the fun in the game.
The island has lots of traps which are described identically. Except one... One trap has a cannibal manning it. Why? Well... its on the path to the Chupacabra. If your newb players head the wrong way the DM needs to pull them back on the rails as it were. That is downright subtle and its certainly not described as the mechanism that it is.
The story interacts with the players, and vice versa. As luck would have it, during an encounter with a bunch of zombies on a ship, the adventurers lit a wet moldy wreck on fire. Any DM worth his salt would bring the Cannibals to the players. I gave them fair warning... "That's a big black smoke cloud over there. You can see it for miles." My players decided to set a trap and wait. They only lost one castaway in the ensuing battle.
The adventure from beginning to end for one group of adventurers to another is utterly different. My friend is also playing it and hist story is totally different. My players decided that since the cannibals were afraid of the Chupacabra, that they would go and kill the Chupacabra, and hide there while they tried to find a way off the island. (See above where the players lit a boat on fire.)
Finally, now that they are on the mainland the adventure really is a railroad. But at this point there is so much momentum, I could drive the players there out of fear. I hardly have to push them.
By the way, I am a strong 4e proponent, but the only reason I'm not playing it is that the off the shelf adventures are exceedingly second rate. If you're looking for something good in 4e, check out what KQ produced. The Lost City (sandboxy adventure), or Courts of the Shadow Fey (bucket brigade). There are very few others of similar quality for 4e.
I've also had extremely good luck with conversions to 4e. Terror in Freeport was the best 4e I ever played. I just don't have time to keep writing and converting material.
Once again, my players remind me that AD&D stands for Attention Deficit & Disorder...
Post subject: Re: [Pathfinder, 4e] Zeitgeist, by E N Publishing
Posted: 05-14-2012, 09:46 PM
Sprocket Joined: 05-09-2012, 07:59 PM Posts: 9
I'm aware of Kingmaker by reputation, but think checking it out would be like comparing apples (an intended/extreme sandbox like Kingmaker) with oranges (a narrative AP like Zeitgeist).
If I were to look at Crimson Throne instead, is there a particular adventure you recommend I look at? If it guides your recommendation, I'm going to be looking primarily at how the adventure enables meaningful character choice within an AP framework.
The first two adventures in Crimson Throne are very good - Edge of Anarchy is about how the party gets together, giving the PCs a thread in common. It then goes on to demonstrate what a wonderful place Korsova is....
But the second adventure.... Seven Days to the Grave is one of my favorite adventures of all time. Plague, undead, politics, dirty rotten scoundrels.... What's not to love? Plus, there is a scene or three that is perfect for The Maiden. (As a whole the Path is a great fit for either TLX or TCL. Plenty of opportunity to go leaping from rooftop to rooftop to... whoops, failed the roll....)
They were written for 3.5, but conversion is pretty easy. I do not know about converting to 4e, but I suspect that it would work well. I really recommend running them in order - there are clues for the second adventure hidden in the first one. Plus, there's that feller what really needs murtherin', .
There are some NPCs in this Path that are really easy to hate.
The Auld Grump, bring out your dead! *Clang* Bring out your dead!
Nullum magnum ingenium sine mixtura dementiae fuit.
Post subject: Re: [Pathfinder, 4e] Zeitgeist, by E N Publishing
Posted: 03-29-2013, 10:19 AM
Sprocket Joined: 03-29-2013, 09:40 AM Posts: 1
Apologies for the thread necromancy.
AuldGrump, I wish you'd come by EN World to share your comments. I'm only now finding them through Google, and I'd love to have gotten some tough love feedback so we might have produced adventures that were more useful for you. There are definitely things we could do better, but it helps if people point our where we're slacking off.
While I'm naturally a bit defensive of my work, I can recognize you've got a point about how PC choices don't affect outcome as much as they could. For Axis Island I think I got too focused on hitting cool scenes I had in mind, instead of giving the players goals to accomplish, a garden to muck around in, and time for them to figure it out on their own.
In defense of Matthew J Hanson's Digging for Lies, while it does have a lot of setpiece encounters, I know from experience that it's only as railroady as you make it. In my playtest the party guessed the villain's identity when they finished exploring the ziggurat, and the moment they spotted her they jumped her, which led to a much different climax than the one suggested in the book. The intent was, "Here's what the villain's trying to do, but if you can stop her early, good on ya."
I suppose it could have been presented better. Do you have any particular suggestions? Ditto with your comments about it not being steampunk-y enough for you. We're going to be doing a hardcover compilation, and it'll provide us an opportunity to polish rough spots.
The gear and XP thing I acknowledge too, but . . . man, I just hate tracking XP, and when I read adventures that actually have 10+ combat encounters per level, it feels padded to me. Perhaps we should have explicitly stated that if you want to use normal or slow XP advancement, it'll provide opportunities for side plots.
By the way, our Pathfinder conversion guy Thurston Hillman wrote adventure 5, and he's writing a big Pathfinder Society adventure for GenCon this year.
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