Seeking answers from owners of product, builders, designer and others..
I own Mayhem Streets and Bits of Mayhem, both great quality products that had a city full of buildings, phone booths, traffic lights, cars barrels etc to work on.
I also have many buildings constructed and mounted on foam board so I am hesitant to reinvest in the smaller streets of legend(that I also bought last year but do not use because of said sizing change) and the SwiftScenics buildings to make up what I already own in the larger format.

For a WWG support who owns the above and more WWG product, why would I want these over the ones I already own?

What is the valued added for those of us that own these older products?
Why would I want this particular set of 5 products?

Multi-level? Well that is taking a blade, cutting one or two levels off one building and stacking it on top of the other. Been there and done that. Love the look too. Got that idea from our general photo gallery.
Different shaped buildings, did the same using same gallery.


Are there design changes that improve the build?
Slot in Balconies are a nice touch. But not enough to make me pay 17:50 for 5 buildings.

I think the other products Matt has done/reworked, Mayhem Service and Street Props and not to mention Mayhem Apartments to name a few are well worth the investment. In those sets there is much value added with the nifty stuff and with the Robocutter Support. He even added a third Service station over the old set that had only two. That right there is VALUE ADDED for us old timers.

I am struggling to convince myself why I want to go to this format with the swift SwiftScenics buildings at the cost present based on what I can see on the adverts here on the WWG site.

I believe that these should have been released as a set for 11:50 or maybe even 6:50 more in line with Mayhem Corporate Swift Scenic release, not 17:50 for 1 building, with 5 skins.


Perhaps that is my issue at the root.
This release doesn't seem as meaty as the rest of your catalog here at WWG.

I am a strong supporter of WWG, I believe in purchasing quality products, but they have to offer something I don't already have or it is just isn't good sense.



Humbly
Styxx42

Styxx42-
I think part of your concern is you are missing the target for the new SwiftScenic line. And to be honest, based on the fact that you already have the old sets, unless you want to swap to the 6 inch base format there really will not be much incentive for your to move to SwiftScenic versions of what you already own.

On the other hand for me, someone that does not own the old Mayhem and want a 6 inch base format that is quick to build, easy to store and provides a quick easy to provide different height building between wargames with out needing a ton of different sized buildings on hand it is an ideal product.

On the other hand the TLX is a major update in all respects, which is probably why you like the new Mayhem Service Station set so much. The builtin versatility of the system makes doing lots of custom build very easy at the expense of longer prep time and more time consuming construction. Second nice aspect of TLX is with just a little work one off builds like a box build Service station or Sholto's crazy foamcore designs are very doable.

I am one of the customers that 5 buildings at 3.50 each as I am only interseted in 2 of the sinks for a total cost of 7.00, which is better deal for me than 5 skins, 3 0f which I don't need, for 11.50 or 17.50. Again I am looking for what the SwiftScenic line offers, fast quick targeted wargame terrain.

Totally agree, buying something that does not offer you any value is a fool's errand and lacking in good sense. In that regard WWG as the Microsoft problem, for their older customers they are having to compete with their own product which is hard to do.

Ehisey covered most of the high points rather well. TLX is a new format that supersedes the older static formats in terms of how we create content, and SwiftScenics was designed to complement TLX. As such, if you're already happy with the older format and you don't see any appeal in the new formats, there's nothing wrong with you sticking with the old format. The old stuff's still good and does what it was originally intended to do very well. In practical terms, the only thing that changed is we're not developing content using the old formats anymore.

As for the pricing/content load issue, selling them individually was something I encouraged Matt and Denny to do. One of the reasons Denny wanted to give me a job here last year was because of my insights and experience with the industry in general, and I specialized in microreleases when I was still running a business of my own. Over most of the decade, I've tried pretty much every permutation of selling things that came in a lot of variations, and the one that works the best in my experience is to break things down individually so customers can choose what they want.

The biggest reason is to embrace agility and flexibility. If you start with 1 set = 1 building, you have the ability to flexibly adapt to customer tastes one building at a time, and you don't constantly end up in a situation where you have to scrape the casserole pan to come up with an additional X variants to form a salable unit.

The second biggest reason is balancing workload with customer choice. Selling things in large bundles forces you to walk a really fine line as a designer. If you put in too many variations and charge too little, you end up spending too much time on the project and it takes that much longer to sell enough copies to pay for itself and put food on the table. If you put too much into a set and charge accordingly, it fosters a perception that people are paying for extra stuff they don't want or need, and they may start complaining that they just want 1 or 2 parts of the whole sold separately. If you bust everything loose into smaller units, it gives people the opportunity to choose only the things they like without having to pay for stuff that they don't want.

The third reason is more of a benefit for the company itself: to establish a baseline value threshold to work from. If a single building is known to be worth, say, $3.50 or whatever, then it's a lot more likely that any one given designer will be comfortable with the idea of doing a new SwiftScenics structure, and it gives us a nice introductory platform for new designers to cut their teeth upon. Before this, getting new designers onboard was very difficult because their debut product essentially had to be a huge $18 set (by old pricing), and that was an intimidating threshold. That's no way to grow a company--we need to be able to give the probies something confidence-building that they can complete without losing the will to live.

I hope I managed to clarify things a bit.

That's a matter more of perception than reality. The fact is, Swift Scenics sets aren't supposed to be "meaty", they're intentionally "lighter" for the budget-concious gamer who's in a hurry and just wants to get something on the table NOW.

That said, the combined total content of the updated sets is considerably higher than that of the original BOM: Downtown set which (as I recall) only had like two or three walls per building, two roofs, one page of signs and one of doors. With the new sets you get four walls per building, a unique roof with each, four pages of signs and one of doors AND of course you can pic and choose which ones you want to buy and which you don't.

Now if you're happy with what you've already got, then by all means save your money just don't rush to dismiss the new stuff too quickly (it's not like we just shrank it down to match the new format and rolled it out the door). A lot of time and thought went into making sure there was good value for money in there and I'd hate to think people might feel like we're just trying to rip them off.

Well I sat on this reply for many days.
And I could say nothing, or I could say something because I do care.
Well damit I care.

I kind of thought that was the primary reason for the 3:50 price point for a single skin shell => a new business model and I also suspected a new Accountant in the woodpile. You confirmed both.
I disagree with you Mel that any product of WWG was ever 18 dollar sets. What set would you be referencing?
Even now 5 years after I purchased many of said older sets they are only about 3 bucks more at 11:50 per product and have WAY more product (MEAT) then this single building skinned in 5 variants sold for 3:50 a Skin. Maybe you were trying to draw a economical comparison but I don't see it based on any available set from WWG. and to compare "SET" meaning if I wanted a fully fleshed out town with different skinned buildings I would pay in excess of 17:50 for the "SET and it would only contain buildings, nothing else, not phone booths, not road signs no trash cans, not roads, no bridges, no rails. Just 5 different skinned buildings.

I am not here to bash WWG or the very talented designers. Hell I support them through my very many purchased products here and previously at RPGNOW. But I have always spoke my mind and opinion in the past be it in a forum or to a private email to Denny and don't feel it is out of line to voice my concerns for a company I care about and promote ( I just took a section of my Mayhem down to the local gaming store and set up a display for the Clixs gamers to view and answered questions as to where they could obtain it) and also work to protect from pirates as vehemently as I do here in my home town.

But I believe strongly that 3:50 for this single skinned (regurgitated from an old set)building vs what is available\comparable to Fat Dragon, or Dave M's or even previous WWG products is out of line. 3:99 I could get a multiple skinned building from the other vendors, inside and out as well as a few extra's like crates, barrels etc. As a frequent purchaser of all listed vendors I know and have done so.

I am not bashing the product, it actually looks (from the few pictures available )like a very good product.
BUT
I feel 3:50, for a single skinned product it is too 3rd to 4th edition for my taste. Reboot should not be a way to take an old product, break it up and sell it for far more adding no real additional content, approaching triple of the original BOM and USOM sets.
Should I not be doing the math looking at these new reboots and compare to what I have already purchased? Is that a no no? well I did.
I didn't support WOTC in that NEW minmaxing stratagem, I don't support reboots of comics or of movies that don't offer something new and I will not be pursuing this at that price point or any other similarly priced and qualified products. I sincerely hope this is not a new business direction for WWG vs their old strategy.
IMHO it is a poor choice that has direct negative impact on old supporters of WWG.

How did you come up with a price point of 3:50 for a single skinned outside only building vs what is available on the net currently? Did you look at , Dave Graffam comparable models and price points?

I will leave you with this rambling thought as it is late and I work in 5 hours.

If you are rebooting products, then reboot it with something new for those of us that purchased the originals and supported WWG way back when they where new, so you(WWG) are still around to reboot said product for new people to purchase. And don't ever again say to me.

" I think what you're missing here is the consideration of people who are new to Mayhem, new to TLX maybe even new to WWG. That's always our primary consideration when we make the sets."

Your primary concern should always be your most loyal customers and supporters not the MIGHT BE AND HOPEFULLY BE customers.

Do this and we will purchase it again.

I gave examples of what you did well in previous reboots in my previous post. I also left some reboots out because I felt they are weak and nothing but a, HEY WE DID GSD FILES FOR YOU.

Saying there is FOUR walls in this product, Well, that is not a selling point.
tell me bow those three walls differ from the 2 walls in the BOM, and why I want to purchase them. I was asking for you to sell me the product. Not tell me that if I have it then I don';t want it. if you can,t then they really are not a selling and you need to do that in the design phase of your reboot.

Hoping this is not seen as a flame, as it is not. I care too much about WWG to be so negative as to just flame.
Delete this if you feel it is. My intention is to talk to the Company I care about and let them know how I feel about their latest product. If I feel this way then you can bet others do, and they are just not supporting or talking about it.

Sincerely
Styxx42
Supporter of WWG since 2007

Styxx42-
Serious question, why do you feel you should have to buy the new sets or even want to? The feeling I am getting from you is that feel your are being forced to update and you are not getting anything new for it. Really there is no pressing reason to upgrade if the old sets are doing what you want. When I found out the *Works were going to be discontinued, I made sure I had all of them as they fit a need for me that the TLX does fit and SwiftScenic has not yet reached a point it can do the job.

I had written more, but really that is the only important part in the post.

Thank you for your input, Styxx. There are a few things I'd like to address however:

1) The original release of Shellendrak Manor was $22.50, so yes we have had MUCH higher priced sets in the past.

2) Technically speaking, every TLX set is a re-skinned set, since the core geometry remains more or less identical. That's kind of the point. It ensures compatibility and gives our customers a solid idea of what to expect from the product. Swift Scenics is no different in this regard.

3) That said, these sets are not simple re-skins. They use the same components as the original release it's true but they required extensive re-working to fit the 2"x6" format and additional details were added or altered on every single element. Additionally (as I already mentioned) each building's content was expanded to four unique walls, a unique roof, three balconies and four pages of add on signs. On a per building basis that's a minimum increase of content by 300%.

4) This is 2012. 2005 pricing schemes simply will not work now.

The Bottom Line: If you don't like this product (or don't feel you need it) then please save your money. We fully understand the economic times we're all living in and would much rather have you save that money for something else (hopefully another WWG product). The thing is, we have to eat too and we simply cannot engage in race-to-the-bottom pricing games.

These are the highest known old prices which can still be verified by a Google search:

Castleworks Ultimate: $16.99
SeaWorks: Maiden of the High Seas: $16.99
SeaWorks: Skull Cove: $16.99
Spaceworks: First Light: $16.99
Platform Command: Operation Nightwatch: $16.99
Platform Command: Battleground: $16.99
Platform Command: Red Sector: $16.99
Spaceworks: Shadowcore Prime: $16.99
Streets of Mayhem: $16.99
Mayhem Armory: $16.99
Mayhem Police Department: $16.99
Bits of Mayhem: $16.99
Mayhem Bank: $16.99
Mayhem Marina: $16.99
Mayhem Mega Mall: $19.99
Shellendrak Manor: $22.50
Wormhole: The Sathricans: $25.00

(The list goes on, but I'll stop here.)

Our most recent price cut was at the launch of the new store last summer, and that's where most of the $11.50 and $6.50 price tags started to appear.

Okay, so I was off by a buck, but that's getting beside the specific point I was making, which is that it's hard to bring aboard new talent if their debut product is expected to be a massive set. That's a lot to ask of a part-timer or an aspiring fulltimer, and we need to have multiple levels or brackets of content load to solve that issue.



It's not quite as cut and dried as that. First, we introduced a new format (TerrainLinx) with all-new content (Himmelveil), then in order to support and fully commit to that new format, we needed to hit other genres also. For science fiction, we have Titan--that's new content, it wasn't a rehash of First Light or anything of the sort. Modern, however, is another pickle entirely.

A brick building is a brick building regardless of whether Matt does a whole new one from scratch or he leverages existing texture assets. Modern stuff is modern stuff, there's no point in not leveraging existing texture assets for something that represents the real world as we live in it today. Brick is brick, concrete is concrete, a gun store is a gun store. Even if Matt completely threw out all of the old assets and started all over from scratch, it would all still look basically the same anyway--a new brick building done in 2011 would pretty much look just like a brick building he did in 2005 or whatever.

Now, that having been said, Matt didn't just shrink the old stuff down and kick it out the door--he did put a lot of new work into the buildings so they wouldn't look stupid in the new format. I know, I watched him do it.



We discussed the price point at some length, and we settled upon one that we felt would still deliver a fair return to the designer after PayPal fees and the company's take, while trying to be as fair to the customer as possible. I can't speak for you, but I know I wanted to see the other designers be able to efficiently manage their time and workload and earn enough to make it worth their while to produce more content. In order to accomplish that, it helps if they can eat and pay their bills.

As for the pricing strategies of other companies...I'm not in a position to make any informed judgements about what others charge for their goods, because I don't work there and I don't know what their books or work habits look like. What I can tell you, however, is that getting into pricing wars with other companies is pointless and will not help our bottom line in the least.



We did. The new sauce is the compatibility with TerrainLinx. The old 7" structures don't fit cleanly into the TLX paradigm, we needed a modern setting in TerrainLinx format, and the nature of the beast means that no matter what we do, it's gonna look kind of the same as the old stuff. Like I said before, a brick building is a brick building, and the entire point of the reboot was to create a modern setting in TerrainLinx format.

Besides, even if we completely wiped the slate clean and stayed completely away from anything that resembled the old Mayhem structures texturally, people would be asking us to update the old stuff anyway, so it would all have ended up back in the catalog in the new format anyway.



Again, I have to ask: if you're already happy with the old format and you don't need TLX compatibility, then why do you feel like you're forced to buy the new stuff? The whole point of the new Mayhem stuff is to have a modern setting in TerrainLinx format. It's not just rebooting for the sake of rebooting.

Ah, Matt beat me to it. That'll teach me to wander off and do the dishes in the middle of a lengthy post.

Also this.

The truth is, one of the biggest factors involved in re-releasing the existing terrain in the new format was customer demand.

I should also add that older building were 7" : so not compatible for 1p5 gamers.
New buildings are...

And? I never understood the idea that someone actually getting paid for their time and effort qualified as a 'sin'. WorldWorksGames has every right, and even a need, to charge for their products, if only so they don't actively lose money in delivering their products.

Keep in mind that I say this a guy that's put out a LOT of gaming-related material for free, and has it used everywhere in gaming circles, including WOTC, Green Ronin, and WorldWorksGames itself.



Though WWG is now my favorite of the paper-mini providers, I've gotten a quite a few pieces from other places as well. $3.50 is pretty reasonable for each product, and is actually a better value than most of the competitors that you cited. You seem to be hung up on the idea of 'reskinning' as if it was a simple pallette swap and 'cake' for WWG to accomplish. This is definately not the case. Good textures (and WWG has some of the best) are the hard part.



No one has said that you're out of line. You're just being disagreed with on this particular issue.



Again, I'm just not seeing it. The $3.50 price point for the set is about on par with the model sets from WWG's competitors. Looking at the sets I have from that price point, WWG has the same amount of pages and pieces, and much higher-resolution and detailed textures.

But, the key point is, if you already have the older versions, and they're working for you, then why would you bother with the new sets anyway? Me, I'll likely pick them up because I can't resist adding to my modern setting, and I also can't resist modifying and bashing the hell out of the things... but I hardly feel obligated to do so.

If a product isn't worth the money to me, I simply don't buy it. If a significant number of people agree with me, then WWG has to lower their prices (if only to cut their losses). That's how the business game works.



Again, I don't see this. While you can argue that a new edition of D&D makes it hard to find gamers for your old edition, paper terrain is... well... pretty much always going to be paper terrain. What's actually preventing you from using the older works at your gaming table?

I apologize if I seem obtuse to your anger here, but I really don't understand why you're turning to the dark side over this.

QFT.

The effort WWG puts in to textures really pays off in how realistic they look in use. You only have to look at WWG terrain on a table alongside any of the others to see the difference that good textures make - WWG's sets look like terrain, the others look like printed cardboard boxes. Plus, WWG hasn't sat on its laurels - Denny and the crew are constantly raising their game, and the newer versions of older sets show the difference.

I still use a lot of older builds because they work and I don't have the time to build complete replacements, and I love the quality of the newer sets that are coming through. I find the SwiftScenics are great as they are quick extensions and drop into older builds just fine.

Okay, no, that's harsh. The competition puts out good stuff too, and it's unfair to tar everything they do with the same brush.

There's a few that put out rubbish, mind you.

But, seriously, I would say that WWG's artistic style is definately a strong point in its direction (and one of the hardest styles to learn, dammit). WorldWorks looks professional in both its product and the delivery of its product. It's that extra level of polish that sets them apart from most of their competition.

I guess I didn't hint strongly enough: it's unprofessional for us to participate in or allow our forum members to trash talk other companies' products regardless of whether they suck or not. We would rather praise the competition for the things that they do well and keep our lips buttoned otherwise. It's just the polite and professional thing to do.

So, please, no more dissing the competition or pointing out their shortcomings in this thread.

Good point Chris. My statement was a bit harsh. There is some good work out there, I've just got so used to the quality WWG produces that its' become the standard I look for when gaming.

Largely agreed. There's a reason I won't cite specifics. In truth, there's very few paper-mini products that I've ever purchased that I've truly regretted. Really my only regret is that some of them seem to have dissapeared from the face of Terra.



Not even the ones that we knew kicked some puppies? Well... okay...

Zing! Masterful hit! You've scored a point on me.



Yup. Every company has a fan base. It wouldn't do to have them all show up here with pitchforks and torches seeking satisfaction for real or perceived slights. It's rough on the china and tapestries, you see.

Aha! And now you shall be forced to work with me to make an Ebbleverse Gundam. It's the only just penance!



Absolutely. It really doesn't serve anyone's interest to say 'they suck, buy our stuff instead'. I've got plenty of paper, after all, and WorldWorks doesn't quite have everything in paper form that I want just yet.

I don't know about a Gundam, but I've been nursing a fantasy of doing a homage to all those cheesy sentai shows with giant robots by doing a grittily reimagined 12-18" tall giant robot with an epically and obligatorily goofy name like Zortkaiser to defend Mayhem from the weekly depredations of giant evil themed robomonsters. Like, you know how Bandai totally overhauled and rebooted the original RX-79 Gundam model with all those realistic engineering details and Katoki-style rivets/bolts a few years ago? I kind of want to take something over the top like UFO Robot Grendizer and give it exactly the same gritty sort of engineering treatment. It looks a lot cooler in my head than I'm making it sound.

The last time I mentioned that fantasy project to Matt and Denny, it snowballed into including giant lizards and maser tanks and so forth. That was a fun conversation.

Excellent response, too many to honestly address.
I totally agree about not bashing other kits or builders.
I respect anyone that puts their art, sweat, work out there for us to enjoy.
I feel like perhaps I was hitting sales when I got a lot of my products Mel so those prices and examples are what I was looking for and needed. Tks

And to add a smidgen of humble pie after my post I noticed that I obviously have not been shopping actively and many of the pricing from "ALL THOSE OTHER" sites had gone up as well from my obviously aged hazed brain so this put this at a price level LOWER then some of my examples I had in mind From DM, they are now 5 bucks

I want to say one more time I am a BIG support of the talent of WWGs. I asked for answers in this post I did, And I also was Server'd.

Thanks for the, calm collected tone and understanding and great amounts of information and detail.

And CapnG I hope in all this that you never mistook this post as a bash against you. I can say that of all the products I purchased from any vendor yours are the most frequent that I go, HEY I NEED THAT.

Now you designers, STOP WASTING YOUR TIME ON MY post and get designing more stuff.

Oh one more thing.
ehisey You asked a great question. I think that I really want to purchase these.
I own Denny's Streets of Legend and LOVE the format, the layout, and the additions. I also really do love the Terra Links, I own Matts Mayhem under Construction and LOVE the way the system is almost lego like in the way you can build and then take apart.

I needed STRONG convincing\answers to questions I had but no one to talk it through with and was looking for it\them here.

Still not looking forward to the work ahead as I mounted all my roads and bases on 1/4 hard pink insulation board and cut it on / so that it fit together really nice.



Thanks again.
Styxx42
(Now a more knowlegable WWG Supporter)

There are many things that I purchase that I don't feel are worth the money I spend. WWG has never disappointed me. Every product they release is better than the previous and each time I purchase a new set I'm impressed even more. I feel WWG prices are completely fair for the quality products they put forth. I wish more companies had the same quality/buck ratio WWG has.

Thanks for the answer. After this post your whole concern does make more sense. I totally feel you on the roads and bases, as much as I love TLX, I am just having trouble getting motivate or redoing the 100+ base tiles I lost to a Tornado last year. On the other hand I am having fun filling my out hinterland with bits of Siegeworks and if can get the campaign group to spring for a little foam core, I got a Seaworks:Atlantis/Exteriorworks:Hinterland board lay out for our 40k Campaign.

I was thinking of something that would fit more of the look that Guncrawl has. Heck, I would it do it myself, but I'm just not quite getting the textures to match up right. Close, but you guys know some tricks that I don't.

(If you're really interested in the robotics, or just even helping me out for formal submissions, throw me a PM. I've REALLY wanted to bring the Paperformers over here as well, but those were done at 72 dpi... which looks pathetic compared what you have on display.)



No, I can see it. I think Bandai and Takara have both been 'modernizing' some of their super Robo designs to make them more realistic (as much as they can be). A giant robot toolkit might be pretty fun, but I would worry that we're stepping on Matt's toes with Red Sector...



Lizards would be tough to pull off.. but you're already 90 percent there with a maser tank.

Nope, not at all. It's vitally important that you share any concerns you have with the stuff we do here so we can continue to improve our products. The only concern (well, hope) we have is that your criticisms are fair and that you take a moment to consider where we're coming from and why we make the choices we do in terms of content and pricing. Hopefully it's all much clearer now.



Working as fast as I can!



Who's "Mike"?



That almost sounds like a challenge... oh if only I had the time...

He's your evil twin, from the fantastic realm of Typo...

That's what I get for posting when I'm in a hurry.



Edit: I had posted that I would be willing to do these things if someone would teach me the weathering techniques, but I'm starting to sound more needy than I want to here. I definately want to learn them, mind, but I'm really trying not to put WWG on the spot. I just seriously enjoy ramping up my own skills in paper-craft, and WWG has been a major eye-opener for me in a lot of ways.

I am very glad that has been said.