Hey gang!

As many of you regulars may have noticed, TerrainlinX and robocutter support have quickly become the new standards to which everything previously released is measured. This has spawned a number of fanbased conversion efforts of older modelsets to the new formats.

Fan-based Conversion

We’ve weighed a number of issue over the past few weeks dealing with fanbased conversions of older modelsets (both TerrainlinX and Craftrobo conversions). We even went as far as drafting a submissions guide, which set a number of benchmarks and policies to deal with such submissions in a group context. In the end though we realized that there were simply too many technical/procedural hoops to jump through in order to make it all happen successfully. Not only would users be required to do 100% complete submissions but they would have to meet a stringent set of visual and organizational standards. The list simply became too long, too complicated and there were too many points along the path where things could go terribly wrong. The LAST thing we wanted to do was create a situation that would have us rejecting a number of submissions because they did not meet set standards or policies. Or worse yet, creating resentment from our most cherished fans because of our quality assurance standards. Without the time and resources in our corner to monitor, help convert or “fix” problem spots, these issues are very hard to navigate.

We realize that many have already embarked on partial conversions (both in the open and in private) and that there is ample demand for specific conversions. Our challenge was in finding a way to navigate that situation without devaluing our older catalog (items which have not passed their natural sales curve) or creating a chaotic, unmonitored sharing situation with variable quality.

Official Conversions

Our solution is to launch an “official” conversion effort by bringing on additional staff and to dictate which modelsets will be converted and when. These conversions will be vetted to our current high standards and will be fully TerrainlinX/Craftrobo compliant. Along with our beta crew we will embark on solving some of the more challenging conversion efforts. In the end we’ll be presenting you with fully compliant, shiny new conversions of a carefully chosen group of our best sellers.

What is being converted?

We are still weighing the pros and cons to specific official conversions. There are many products in our catalog which simply do the job they were intended to do without need of conversion. Because of the time and energy involved to successfully convert a modelset, conversions will initially be targeted on a case-by-case basis. The whole ball of wax comes down to which sets would benefit from a reintroduction most without killing the current popularity or intended usage of the original.

Our concern at the end of the day is that customers are receiving the highest quality product possible.

**UPDATE**

Some confusion and concerns regarding the official policy. Here's an exchange that I hope will further clear the air...



Hey Eric,

Yes we're really discussing two separate issues here but they fall under the same umbrella: CraftRobo conversions (which still require manipulating graphics to fit the safe cut zone) and TLX conversions (which is far more complex).

The problem with conversions is really 2 fold; quality concerns & sharing concerns. If a user takes it upon his/herself to go whole-hog with an entire conversion solo, then we would of course evaluate the results (we'd be silly not to). That said, it needs to be up to our various standards because it would essentially be going back into the core catalog. What we don't want to do is aggravate a well meaning converter after they've done a ton of work only for us to say, "well this or that needs to be fixed or needs work before we can except the material". Moreover; with enough people working on conversions that quickly turns into a very real strain on our limited time/resources and ability to vet various conversions for specific quality benchmarks.

In respect to collaborative conversions, it basically opens the door to illegal sharing with others who may or may not own the model set slated for conversion. One user might start the conversion but without some way of ensuring additional users own the core modelset, you end up in a situation where people are swapping files back and forth with no real transparency at all. Essentially we'd be green lighting an illegal file sharing network of our own work. We saw early evidence for that provided to us by a few trusted souls before any policies were set. In our view it was just the beginning of a more endemic problem. There's ways around that but again it boils down to moderating a very complicated puzzle and it would put a massive strain on our resources.

As I said, I created a draft guideline for collaborative conversions but even our betacrew was in agreement that its just too complicated to manage. That's not to say one day we won't make it happen but for now the simplest course of action is to keep things "official".

All of that said; if you've taken a conversion across the finish line previous to this policy, please don't hesitate to send it our way for a look. If it meets our benchmarks we'll compensate completed solo conversions with free stuff.

What is your official stance on customers who wish to share partial conversions amongst their peers?

Well, that's kind of what we're trying to avoid here. As I said, we already drafted a complete process for fanbased conversions but it was just completely unrealistic and fraught with potential problems.

Sharing partial bits sounds innocent on the surface (and though I trust a gross majority of you), that situation is a powder-keg in terms of things steamrolling out of control (with users that don't officially own the core modelset). Whatever your stance, if the internet has taught us anything its that human nature dictates this kind of unmonitored sharing tends to get out of hand...and fast. (We've got a loooooong and painful history there)

So, what I'm saying instead is that you guys can expect official (and perfect) conversions coming down the pipe. They will be complete and match our exacting standards.

Like I said, its not a perfect solution but its the only one we can realistically pursue at this point without opening the doors to potentially damaging sharing practices and variable quality conversions. Its a position we really have no choice but to take publicly.

For utter usefulness can Cathedrae Noctis: REQUIEM get the treatment as well? For what I have in mind the less Evil version would be better.

I've got to say, that is really cool. While I've been trying to do some conversions myself, I'll be honest and say that I'm only doing the parts that I need right now (Hinterlands trees and cramped hands ). Having official conversions done to your standards is very exciting to me, and something I am really looking forward to. Keep up the great work guys, and keep wowing us with your amazing products.

The one question I would like answered is if people who have already purchased a set will automatically get access to the conversions when (or if) they happen?

I would say not - for the simple reason that this is not a patch nor an update but in reality a new product.

Up to the lads in power but I wouldn't expect so.


Lord Abaddon of Wormwood

As LA points out, the juggernaut hoops one must jump through in order to make a conversion happen automatically negates that possibility. Nearly every element needs to be reconfigured, remastered and tweaked to fit the TerrainlinX standard. Then the beta crew has to go through everything to ensure elements work as advertised. Then there's GSD/robocutter creation which is a completely separate process. And last but not least, we have to invest time in a promotional relaunch.

Bottom line; these are old products with completely new usage potential and they take a number of resources to convert properly. We have to account for the production load by make conversions worth the effort and we have to do so while not devaluing our old catalog.

What about Kitbashes?

Could kitbashes be used to distribute fan converted sections of kits where the full/official conversion is not available?

Unfortunately we don't have the resources to strictly monitor the plethora of quality assurance points needed to oversee fan based conversions of official modelsets. Handing the job off to a few "expert" converters makes much more sense to us and ultimately its what's best for the end user.

As I eluded to in the first post, handing conversions off to fans is fraught with problems. These aren't technically kitbashes but conversions to a new standard. We have some latitude and lower expectations with standard kitbashes because they are geared towards adding novel elements to existing sets. People know quality will be variable because they are fan derived, experimental add-ons. TerrainlinX conversions don't really fit that mold because we need to ensure a consistent level of quality on all levels. If any one part of the conversion is flawed, we need to rectify that so that the end consumer gets a perfect translation for their money. We are releasing whole and complete, converted modelsets, not bits and pieces which would ultimately devalue our older offerings (or make a big confusing catalog mess).

On the surface it seems like a negotiable issue but trust me when I say, we've talked it over at length and there's no simpler solution than to go official with these conversions.

I'm VERY happy to hear this, and will purchase any official conversions made. Put in my vote for:

• Caveworks
• Hinterlands (mainly for RoboCraft)
• Swamplands (mainly for RoboCraft)
• Thoumonts

I second Thraug's list.

Although Swamplands is of less interest to me than the others, I'd buy it too.

I completely understand, but it occurred to me you could do something like you did when Terrainlinx was first coming out where you had a week where the sets were discounted. I don't know how hard it would be to set up, but could you do something where for say a week after the new conversion is released, those who've already purchased the old set could buy it for some discount, say 25%? This would likely both drive some people who aren't sure if they want to re-buy to go ahead and do so, as well as "rewarding the faithful" without devaluing the old catalog.

That's something I'll need to discuss with our web guru. I'm not opposed to a discount for previous buyers, I just don't know that its possible under our current system without a major overhaul.

What about instead of a discount, throw in a few extra items like walls or tiles or object. I understand that converting will take almost as much if not the same work as making a brand new one. (trading off making the textures for extra planning required to rework certain things) but if the tlx version had a little extra, those who had to repurchase those items would at least feel like they are getting something new in addition to the already great product.

I know absolutely nothing about how online sales systems work, but if a discount is hard to get it to do, would some kind of credit be easier to implement, ie, if you already have Hinterlands, you get a $3 credit towards its repurchase? It would essentially have the same effect, but maybe be easier to implement due to the server voodoo.

Another alternative is to have some kind of discount sale the first week the set comes out that's open to all. It wouldn't be specific to the people who already have it, but we're more likely to know when it comes out and get tempted to purchase it again. Those impulse re-purchases are likely to recoup any loss of revenue due to newcomers getting the revamp for the discount.

Your current system supports coupon codes. You should be able to get a list of all customers who purchased the previous set and send them e-mails with a coupon code...

What if someone bought the products through Paizo or RPGnow. I bought a bunch of stuff from the other ones before finding this website. Now I buy everything here, because I assume they get a large cut buying directly. But still from my point of view I still paid for everything.

Most of the stuff I bought elsewhere wasn't WWG stuff so I'm not that worried, but just bringing up a definant possiblity.

Gents,

Discounts for this are bonkers. This is something new if you buy the TLX version of Cathedrae Noctis. Hint: it's in TLX format. Your previous purchase wasn't. You either want the TLX compatibility, or you don't, and that's the WHOLE point of buying the TLX version.

I so don't understand the idea of offering discounts in a almost one-man show - that's almost as good as saying "I designed this and I don't believe it's worth it".

Lord Abaddon of Wormwod

As noted; given that our catalog is spread out there on Paizo, OneBookShelf (RPGnow), YourGamesNow and here at home...any discount scheme is highly unlikely to happen. Its just too complicated.

I suppose I'm torn on that whole issue anyway. I mean, I have to agree with Lord_Abbadon in that these are effectively new products with a major increase in general usability (TerrainlinX compatibility). They take nearly as much work to produce/convert, make compliant. When you look at it on the whole, technically their value should be more than a standard modelset. You either need/want TLX compatibility or you don't.

You guys have to accept my apologies for bouncing around on the issue. Its a complicated onion to peel back. Though we all hoped TerrainlinX and robocutter support would be successful, we didn't anticipate the demand or the complexities involved with older conversions.

I do understand the desire for a discount. But I really must agree with LA, a TLX version is more than worth the price.

I think that part of the problem is how simple TLX seems. Its just not apparent what a can of worms trying to convert old sets is. I think people are getting a bargain if the TLX version is the same cost as the original set. Since the conversion almost definitely contains a higher page count and supports robocutting.

Thats why I was so pleased to see Menace get made official WW crew. He is tackling a project I didn't want to do myself and I had doubts Denny or other designers would find the time for.



Of course if a new prop or something was added to sweeten the pot thats even better.




I don't have a robo so I haven't been following those threads, but I thought coverting for robo and converting to TLX were separate things. Just that all TLX conversion would include robo support. Isn't there a whole thread for robo conversions going?

Besides I don't see how exteriorworks could be converted. The tiles don't fit 6" TLX standard. And scaling them down would ruin the texture match to the props. besides neither set really has any structures to adapt to the TLX, as it doesn't work for round.

If I may have a say at this...

I remember a time before there were CD’s. Imagine everybody who ever owned the White Album or Sgt. Pepper’s on vinyl asking for a discount when they went to buy the CD version in the 80’s. Just doesn’t make sense to me...

It’s the same for TLX. The finished product is a whole different ballgame. It’s not just a new format, it mainly opens up a whole world of new possibilities. To take Cathedrae Noctis as an example: the original set was mainly designed to make 1 layout. Of course you could change this and make different lay-outs, but I doubt a lot of people were willing to invest the time and resources to make 2 or 3 different lay-outs, depending upon what they needed in their games.

This is completely different for the TLX version. In fact, I already have a few alternate lay-outs in mind which I’ll show in the appropriate thread once I get the roofs finished. Instead of making 1 cathedral, you make elements with which you can make anything, from a greek temple to a small church, to a big cathedral. It’s this multitude of possibilities that really makes the difference.

The only thing I can say to the non-believers is simple: wait and see. The best is yet to come. I’m fairly certain we’ll blow your minds with what’s going to be possible with the first set. Pricing will be the last thing on your mind

Man, you are really on the right side of the counter - that last part makes you sound like Denny Jr.


Lord Abaddon of Wormwood

Why do I suddenly get this visual?

you got the hair style down

lol

This just gets more facinating all the time. I never thought of all the possibilities inherent in a complete conversion. You opened my eyes to a lot when you started your conversion of the cathedral.

There is no doubt in my mind that the TLX conversions should be priced as a new model. Personally, I don't want a discount or coupon. What I want is to support the people who take on the work and problems to make these quality conversions a reality for us. That is what is important ... to me at least.

I must admit that when I first heard you were asking people to purchase the TLX version of older models I was frustrated/annoyed because I felt that I had already purchased the set. With the above explanation I understand why it is a value add; thanks for clarifying it for me.

Seconded!

Sounds like a plan. What's first up to bat?