From the email:

I haven't looked at the new documents yet, but will continue playtesting. We have played a half dozen times or so at this point. The magic items will hopefully give us something else to look forward to in game.

WoTC has an update on their intent for Next magic items that appeals to me. Gone are the days of endless magic upgrades to be level appropriate. They see magic items kind of evolving, growing and revealing traits as you use them. They also limit the amount you can use at a time, and increase rarity.

Overall I like the idea of returning to the days where your magic sword helped define your character instead of leveling him/her up.

I hate to tell you this, but magic items defining the character date back to OD&D. One of the reasons that RuneQuest was created back in the day was a player saying something along the lines of "I am a +3 Magic Sword and this is my fighter Bob" (Misquoting horribly - it has been 30+ years since I heard Perrin describing the incident.)

So it is not a return.

Not saying that it is a bad idea, mind, just that it is not something that has ever been native to D&D, possibly excluding the carbuncle that is 4e.

It was addressed in 3.5 with Weapons of Legacy - which was a terrible book built around a great idea.

The Auld Grump

I guess I mean MY return to the days when OUR characters were defined by our magic weapons. (Fond memories!) My best friend's talking greatsword still is referred to almost every game.

But thanks for slamming down my inaccurate reference. I should have been paying more attention when I was 12. And played runequest. And read weapons of legacy before posting.

Me and my ignorance! Can't write a post without a reminder. Thanks

I tend to disagree with you, Grump. I feel like the Christmas Tree effect grew steadily and became a huge issue of balance by the end of 3.5 (and got moderately better with 4e, but still not perfect). I feel like the older editions, while the did have similar items - like the +1 Weapon - they were also character defining.

I feel like wielding a magical weapon should be like Frodo having the ring, or Bilbo with Sting. At times it can be too hokey to have intelligent weapons, but I always house rule similar things to what D&D Next is hinting at. Here is an idea from DMMagic that is pretty similar to how I like to run things: http://ajourneyofsorts.com/2010/10/comb ... f-weapons/

Any movement away from 4e's magic item policy is good news to me. I can still remember most of our old magic items from back in the day, and almost none from my currant 4e games. Mainly because now all our characters are covered from head to toe with them. Many/most from leveling up, not from acquiring during play.

It seems to me like default 4e has less items on any given character, but they change out more often which makes for being able to forget them easily.

I am not overly fond of any current item systems out there. I like for PCs to have options, but I also want the items to make them feel special...not entitled.

Well, aren't you the well balanced one then? A chip on each shoulder.

It was not intended to be taken as a personal insult - my assumption was that you have not been playing the game, edition by edition. It is in fact a new(ish) direction, and rather a good one.

I will also redefine my statement; taken as originally written it is flawed - as Basic and Expert D&D did do a decent job of not overloading with magic items. So, assuming that those are your yardstick, it is possible that for you it was a return. I skipped Basic and Expert, already running AD&D when those arrived on the scene, so they slipped my mind. I do not think of them, in spite of the huge number of people that they brought into the hobby.

You are building a confrontation where none was intended. I actually approve of having items that scale over static items that are discarded over time.

And good gods - do not regret not having read Weapons of Legacy! It was a great idea with terrible implementation. While it explored the idea of magic items progressing with the characters, it was very flawed. I rather hope that something similar, but better considered, comes out for Pathfinder. The core idea is very solid.

@Talae - ever look at the loads of treasure that overloaded first and second edition adventures? Even the ones in Dungeon Magazine would provide an arsenal for small nations. Believe it or not, 3.X tried to curb the problem. Or at least add codified guidelines.

Not saying that it succeeded, particularly, but they did put in guidelines to prevent second level characters with +3 swords. Balance in previous editions pretty much depended on the DM - there were folks that ran Monty Haul dungeons, and folks like me that gave out treasure with tweezers. I used to be amazingly stingy with treasures in general and magic items in particular.

But I would take 3.x with all of its flaws over the [Insert Insult HERE] of 4e. 4e took the idea of balance and tried to build the system around it - taking away much of the art that makes GMing fun.

Again, Basic and Expert D&D was less reliant on magic items, in part because of the limited types available.

As an aside, has anyone run Iron Heroes? A book by Monte Cook that explored balancing characters without much by way of magic items. Very good, but not something that I could interest my players in.

The Auld Grump

I find 4e the worst as far as magic items taking away from characters, but often being used by players to define their character sheet. It became all about outfitting your character, and then swapping out slots for the next level up item with the right bonus. Yes it sort of tempered the load up with a magic item for every occasion or having the one uber item issues that some people had, but I like their to be more story behind items.

Magic items, just like any special item in any game, tends to help define a character. 4e's system just did little to help you define a character more than a few sessions, as they all tended to have a temporary feel to them. At least older editions made a magic item a much more stable aspect of your character, thus the "instead of leveling him/her up" point that I think was being made. I mean, I can remember a theif getting a dancing sword way back when, which stayed with him for a good ten levels. At first it was an overpowered lucky find that marked him as on his way to becoming a great adventurer, and later it was a signature item that he was known by. Yes, between he managed to collect a trove of magic weapons that could arm a nation. That was part of the fun of collecting a dragon's hoards worth treasure as an adventurer. You might have all that stuff, but unless a character died and you needed to outfit a replacement, there often was not a need to actually change your items that you liked. When you did swap something out, it was because of an epic moment. The mechanics of 4e made that kind of thing unlikely. You needed to upgrade/refit your character as part of leveling. Carrying your father's axe or the sword you found in a warlord's crypt after being released from the fighting pits just wasn't going supported by the system.

Yes, a good DM or group still found ways of getting the same feel, either by having the item level up or just change over time. The system though was more designed for characters to swap out times or cluster items together for optimizing.

The other thing, to me, is that in earlier additions a +1 weapon on its own was just an item. It might be rare enough to find a +1 item that the DM did a lot to invest character into YOUR +1 weapon, but it was on its own just an item. The cool magic stuff was all the advanced rare find stuff, like the dancing sword or staff of the arch-mage. Those things you usually had to earn, and once you had something it did become like Bilbo and sting. As editions continued, a +1 weapon became the plastic spork of a the adventures world. Everything and everyone had something better. 4e tried to stop that by making "magic" attacks more an internal trait of characters and mobs, but still everything did something "special". As a result, nothing really feels special and you lost a feel for character. And as a side effect of the regimented leveling of magic items, things like elven plate lost a feel for being unusual or adding an aesthetic to your character and instead just became the next level up stuff to get.

Anyway, simple role players have always fallen back to "I'm playing a fighter with a +2 battleaxe". That said, in early editions, that meant a lot more. A +2 weapon put you above the common folk, let you slay things others lived in dread of. 4e lost even that, with you needing to describe your character's build more than even what he carried. The systems have either made it easier or harder to take things a step past that "+2" descriptor, and my impression is that Next is trying to get back to having a magic item be really important to who your character is rather than just a part of your inventory.

I have noticed that Pathinder has been putting semi-unique items in their adventure paths - items that are different than those in the Core book, but generally with the stats for making them if folks really want to. (The armor worn by the Stag Lord comes to mind.)

Both 3.X and Pathfinder also have 'minor artifacts' - powerful but not unique items that PCs are not able to create for themselves.

4e had those rules for taking the magic out of items and using it to make other magic items. Well, they succeeded - they certainly managed to take the magic out of magic items.... (And finding out that you can harvest the guts of a rust monster that has eaten a magic item annoyed the heck outta me.)

The Auld Grump

It's hard to say what my DM did back in the day in regards to strictly following any "rule", but he made our weapon/items feel epic. An attentive, artful DM certainly could work "epicness" into 4e items, but our reality has become grabbing "tools" every other level up on WoTC character builder.

And it sucks. IMHO

Not that my DM has lost his touch, in fact he has grown enormously! I believe 4e stripped him of the opportunities to make an impression (in game) when magic needs to come in piles.

I recommend reading the Next Magic Items article. Lot's of good info on possible new direction. Most of which I like.

P.S. Oh yea! I got chips baby! I got chips!

As for the latest playtest, I was very amused to see a photocopy of the original B2 map in the package. This also being the first playtest I have seriously read ( I know, I know should have read them all), I like the format of it reminds of the old red box days, when rule books were simple. I some how doubt the final rules will be as nice.

One thing I am not sure I like is the near constant powering up of low level Mages. I still have fond memories of the days when a mage was not a combat unit, but more utility character with only 1 daily spell.

Also is it just me, or does it look like Next is trying to codify the things a good GM does almost on instinct?

Augh -- magic items coming from leveling up? That's so...wrong.

I'm glad I've strayed from the D&D path. Was this in 3.5? We've played a bunch of 3.5 but the GMs never implemented anything like that! I'd throw up and quit. Seriously.

But then again, I'm all for characteristics rolled on 3D6 (although I now grudgingly allow players to assign them to the characteristics they want), so I'm pretty old (school).

Steve

i start by saying i DON'T like magic items very much...
that's because i like low fantasy and cloak and dagger settings.


That being said i think that items evolving is nice idea, and it'a a workaround i use in 4e edition when i can!

the problem is that it's a game based on the assumption players of a certain lvl have at least +x to hit +y ac +z other defenses, but afterall it's only a problem if u want to WRITE adventures! if u play with your group u can simple do the math giving them a certain probability to hit and be hitten as much as you want the fight to be hard/easy fast/slow...

One thing that i HATE is when i have players that don't have signature equipment (and they usually don't) and i have to think what kind of items should be in a certain chest... when it isn't functional to the story but simply because it's easier to keep them on par for a certain power level that modding all monsters to scale properly!

You got the chips? Then I'll bring the dip. (It's D&D - there are always chips and dip, and usually pizza as well....)

I agree with you about 4e - there were many reasons for why I hate it so, magic items are high on the list. It makes them even more disposable than in 3.5.

One way I found to put some 'magic' back into 3.X magic items is to allow components that reduce the XP cost - from minotaur horns to the blood of dragons. Even in mythology the bits and parts of great monsters were used to create marvels. From dragon's teeth to dragon's blood, to the severed head a gorgon.

Pathfinder does not have an XP cost, instead there is a Spellcraft roll - and fumbles are where cursed items come from. Though most of the magic items in my current Pathfinder games are found, not made or bought. There seems to be a belief that if the GM knows what he is doing then the items that the party needs will be in the adventures, aside from potions and scrolls. Given the way both Paizo and myself write adventures... this is a fair assessment. I think that most decent pick up the skill.

The Auld Grump

I remember my favorite dwarf being on pins and needles waiting for his drake scales to come back from the armorer. Laced with magic, customized by my GM. I was so happy writing it down on my character sheet. Finally my dragon scale armor. The next game we switched to 4e... never looked at my armor again. Traded it in 2 levels later for I don't know what.

Next items don't "grow" as you level, but similar to un-locking as you learn more about them. No way I will accurately sum up their method, I would read WoTC article on "Next Magic Items" to get the facts. Still sounds like more fun than eating at the 4e magic troff.

That actually sounds like a decent way to handle it.

Again, WoL explored the idea, but then put in enough penalties for improving the weapon/armor/staff/what-have-you that folks dropped the items in the nearest town (Yeah, I want a magic sword that subtracts two from my Dex....)

Not that I am bitter, or anything.... (That it was a great idea made the actual awfulness worse.)

The Auld Grump

i see they took a good step in the right direction for the clerics

i'll explain:
If u can cast 3 lvl 1 spells let's say u prepare spell X Y Z, then on each day u can cast ANY combination of those spells up to your limit (XXX XZZ etc etc).
This is a good thing
another good thing is the fact that u can cast a heal and then take another action (non spell) plus the fact u can cast in a large radius and not just bu touch means u are finally free to use that damn mace in your hand and not to be a standing heals distributor.


Too bad they didn't take the same love to the wizard...
they should expand the signature spells or let the cantrips scale...


well i have to say i'd like a "mana system" or spell points... (so you can combine spell levels as you wish but i have to admit this is a mess with scaling spells)

another way could be copying the cleric system
and... why not giving a signature spell to clerics too?
mmmh it might work...1 signature spell (it recharges every 10 min) and u can casti any combination of spells (i'd say clerics must prepare and wiz must have them in the spellbook) up to your daily capability...