Himmelveil: Great Expectations

Hey gang,

For those long time regulars, “Himmelveil” is the fuel for many inside jokes and the source of some aggravation. For those new to WWG; Himmelveil is a planned series of products which focuses on a fantasy township and or city setting. Much like our “Urban Mayhem” series of modern products, Himmelveil promises to use the same multi-release approach, with a foundation starter package followed by individual building and or district releases.

The aforementioned aggravation factor grew from many failed restarts of this particular product lineup. We’ve been planning Himmelveil for a few years now (where’s that embarrassment emoticon again?). The first official release was 90% complete when I suffered a major hard drive failure and at the time did not have redundant backups (a hard lesson which I have long since rectified). After getting over the creative devastation of losing all of that work, what followed was a series of failed attempts to relaunch the project. Various people jumped in and jumped out of production, life got crazy, work and project priorities shifted, the business grew and shrunk…and grew some more. Long story short, Himmelveil sat in a dusty corner of our minds, the black sheep of the WWG family with so much potential.

Mind you, there have been Himmelveil releases. These include Peter Gifford’s recently released “Thoumont’s Rare Tomes and Components” set within Himmelveil, Paul Senior’s “Himmelveil Harbormaster” set within the harbor district and of course the wonderful standees collection by Matthew Cuenca “Citizens of Himmelveil 1 & 2”.

So what am I getting at? Himmelveil has been on the hearts and minds of this community for years now and everyone has different expectations regarding what it is and or what it can be. For various reasons I have new motivation to get back to the grass roots aspects of what WWG is and does. I plan on making a very personal and active effort to develop Himmelveil very soon but before I dive into it with my own preconceptions I want your opinions...

* What do you want Himmelveil to be? What should it encompass? What areas are you most interested in seeing?

* How would you like to see releases handled (size, price)?

* What order would you like to see things released?

* What format do you want or need in your games (gridless, 1”, 1.5”, hex)?

* How modular? (everything compatible with everything else or character structures which may or may not be totally modular with other sets).

* What’s your favorite build mode out of all the various things we’ve experimented with in the past? (free floating walls, place as you play, 2.5-D, masterboard, Chunky style)

* Would you like to see tangible versions of this product and if so what format would you enjoy most (poster prints, vinyl mats, Cdroms, preprints)?

I want constructive feedback and I want you to feel engaged with the process of creating Himmelveil. I very much want this to be a community influenced project.

So have your say! I’m listening.

What do you want Himmelveil to be? What should it encompass? What areas are you most interested in seeing?

A city or village setting. I remember mention that it would incorporate some level of technology. So there would be plumbing present at least. This is fine with me. Although I do use a lot of pure fantasy so I would like to be able to build the building without plumbing too. Although as long as some of the walls didn't have the pipes I can easily just reuse them in place of walls that do have them. But if the textures are still being created perhaps the plumbing and walls are still on separate layers and so both versions can be printed.

Texture wise I love the sharp clean look of dungeonlinx and even villageworks. Undercrypt was kind of gritty looking in the pics which has less appeal to me.

I do like the idea of some tech at least. Many times I've wanted to kitbash something steampunk and have been stopped cold be cause there are no WW textures that fit.

As for actual pieces or buildings: A blacksmith, a much better market place, a variety of houses are all that come to mind right now.

* How would you like to see releases handled (size, price)?

I don't have any mayhem stuff so I cannot speak to the quantity to cost issue. But it seems practical to release Himmelveil in the same kind of sections.

* What format do you want or need in your games (gridless, 1”, 1.5”, hex)?

I do have both D&D and mage knight so I use both 1" and 1.5". But I can kitbash 1.5" from gridless.

* How modular? (everything compatible with everything else or character structures which may or may not be totally modular with other sets).

I'm not particularly worried about this. Off hand I cannot think of any time where I was unable to combine 1 WW set with another because of geometry. Now there are a number of texture transition pieces I still need, say hinterland to caveworks.

* What’s your favorite build mode out of all the various things we’ve experimented with in the past? (free floating walls, place as you play, 2.5-D, masterboard, Chunky style)

I love the dungeonlinx textures, and I think the 2.5D is a fantastic way to do really quick layouts. But I game so rarely I have time to build full 3D.

For me floating walls are the best middle ground so far. Not that I wouldn't mind a better way to attach them to each other or the board. I just find chunky walls so time consuming to build and store that layouts using them become a lot smaller.

* Would you like to see tangible versions of this product and if so what format would you enjoy most (poster prints, vinyl mats, Cdroms, preprints)?

Honestly I work on such a tight budget I probably wouldn't buy any under most circumstances so I don't think my opinion is a good basis for choosing. Unless you started making stuff on precut styrene cards like wizkids pirates. I might find the funds for that, and they'd be great gifts.

A set of streets and flats of a medieval type city would be great to get things rolling. Some merchant style buildings and some apartments/inns (whatever they would be called) would be nice to get things rolling.

As for build style, I think the footprint of the building does not matter as much as its base size. As long as you release base plates that are able to make the building cross compatible, I think whatever you come up with will be great. By that, I mean instead of 7"x7" flats like Mayhem, you could have two 3"x4" buildings that could either fit on that 7"x7" plate or a 6"x6" plate for sets that might use that standard. Much like their are 1" and 1.5" bases for the Mayhem buildings.

As for buildings with interiors, I rather like the idea of modular rooms, but I suspect its easy enough to kitbash things to be modular (as I sort of did with Shellendrak).

Neat a wish list of sorts;

Updated Village works ie. Hollywood flats that could be decked out with interiors at a later point. That is having a shell then when a need arises to rebuild that shell with internals.

Small releases; I would love to see a streets pack & a street prop pack instead of one Mega Bundle of all the above. WHy? Some of us don't need half the items, others need only one part first and get the next in another installment.
On this same note I would like to see themed packs for internals, something akin to Paul's Mega Mall shops - I would like to buy a pack that has a butcher, baker & candlestick maker all in one but not the walls - just the props for those professions. Modd packs that shift the flavour of a building without having to have a whole new set(s).

Try and minimise the number of footprint sets - the idea works great for hospitals, Police stations and Malls but they also detract from building due to the lack of focus. The lack of focus is on the part of the builder not the set's creator - not matter how detailed the instructions become footprint sets lose people. Having preset designs works - do a build (a butcher for example) should how it's done then give one or two photos of variations of that standard build (the baker and the candstick makers)

A tighter scale than Mayhem; By this I mean that Mayhem buildings and roads are unscaled. The hollywood flats are based off the Armoury, which is a tad unscaled in the first place (not picking on Matt or Denny but one was working to fit others scale with out the focus). Also work out what you, the creators want from this set/system - is it a Wargaming primarly system or an RPG setting - who's figures are you scaling against? GW & PPress or Reaper and others. Once that is decided the scale can be worked out from there. This in turn raises the questions should the Hollywood flats style buildings be smaller in stature than buildings that have internals or keep on par with each other.

My personal want is to have the ability to mount a building onto either a base with a footpath wrapping around it so it can sit up against/ontop of a road system or be able to build the building butted up against the next (rows of shops)

Ungrided is my only want.


To sum up:

Hollywood flats that the skins could be used to make full structures at a later date.

A road system/building size that is equal to each other in scale. Also a clever way of raising the terrain that feels solid once built.

Pre-set builds with some variation to make different version of the same building... does that sound right? These sets need not have props or minimal props for faster production

Interior Packs that make the above more modular/variable, packs that change the flavour of the building through props and small builds add-ons; eg a baker's oven

The main thing I want is a steady flow of releases - large or tiny that keeps me buying, building and interested in this range. I do not want a Mega sets releases that the "hands dusted" once finished. I want the support and the vibrance of a living city through the releases. Quite honestly one large set a month or every second month filled up with small/tiny releases on a weekly/biweekly. Sounds like a lot but once you break down the big sets that have been released in the past there is a lot that could be sold off in smaller bundles.


My side wish is to have the base sets repackaged into 15mm scale once enough have been released. Minis most props.


Ok that's my first wish list.


Lord Abaddon of Wormwood

I agree footprints methods are very useful, but need several good layouts included. When I start working on a footprint set I spend 3/4 of the time coming up with a layout that I like.

And the footprint gives you both flats and full interiors at the same time so its a great way to go. But I really want to push for some corner strips that allow the walls to be expanded slightly so the exterior can be mounted on foamcore.

But definitely the butcher and baker type thing. The fantasy sets NEED some kitchens. And some more food options, like sacks or breads, and dishes too.

I'd like to toss another question in to consider as you're answering Denny's questions (and please, do keep the replies coming).

Looking at our two existing Himmelveil sets (Thoumont's and Harbormaster), what do you like about them? What do you dislike? If we were to use these as a 'baseline' for other Himmelveil releases, what elements of them do you definately want to see, and what elements should we avoid?

One of the things that I would definitely want to see early on is a 'Village Works Deluxe' - small buildings, with or without interiors. Just generic small buildings rather than specific buildings.

Better would be a set designed in such a way that Interior Works would be compatible - just the inside of the outer walls done to match either C&K or P&I, interior walls relying on actually owning the IW sets. (Interior Works remain my most often used sets. The stairs from C&K remain my most often build piece.)

Do the 'name' buildings as separate sets, Thoumont's, the Harbormaster, etc. as the standouts among the generics. (I really need to build Thoumont's - at this point all that I have built is the stove... this would be a great building to destroy for Mordheim.)

I would also like to see 'flats' like those in BOM, but given that I would mostly be looking at Mordheim this is a lower priority.

The Auld Grump

*EDIT* By 'small' I mean something that will fit on a single 6x6 tile, perhaps more than once.

Also - I disagree with Lord Abaddon about Harbormaster - I feel that it gives a definite feel for the city, my only problem with it is that it is in no way generic - though I have used it as a train station rather than the Harbor Master the one time that I did use it. I love the building. It just feels more Victorian than any earlier period. (But I run a Steampunk game - being Victorian is a good thing. )

* What do you want Himmelveil to be? What should it encompass? What areas are you most interested in seeing?
I'd like releases of specific purpose built buildings, like Harbormaster or Thoumont's.
* How would you like to see releases handled (size, price)?
About the way Mayhem has been done.

* What order would you like to see things released?
I'd like a street set first, similar to SOM.
* What format do you want or need in your games (gridless, 1”, 1.5”, hex)?
I'd prefer gridless or 1 inch
* How modular? (everything compatible with everything else or character structures which may or may not be totally modular with other sets).
Not a big issue for me.
* What’s your favorite build mode out of all the various things we’ve experimented with in the past? (free floating walls, place as you play, 2.5-D, masterboard, Chunky style)
Master board for this style, place as you play for dungeons.

* Would you like to see tangible versions of this product and if so what format would you enjoy most (poster prints, vinyl mats, Cdroms, preprints)?
CDROM and Pre-prints.

What do you want Himmelveil to be? What should it encompass? What areas are you most interested in seeing?

Himmelveil should be an improvement on VillageWorks and Pubs and Inns. It should encompass a means for minis to be in any locations that characters find themselves in (inns, pubs, houses, kitchens, guildhouses, libraries, roof tops, etc.).

* How would you like to see releases handled (size, price)?

Personally I would think that large generalized sets and small specific sets would be the way to go. As for price, you guys have always done a good job with pricing.

* What format do you want or need in your games (gridless, 1”, 1.5”, hex)?

1" exclusively.

* How modular? (everything compatible with everything else or character structures which may or may not be totally modular with other sets).

Being modular with other sets completely isn't a major concern. I would rather you take this idea as a means to use the old sets as learning experiences and implement all the changes this time around. I would like for the set to be modular amongst itself for the most part though.

* What’s your favorite build mode out of all the various things we’ve experimented with in the past? (free floating walls, place as you play, 2.5-D, masterboard, Chunky style)

I haven't built chunky, as I don't own it, but I am currently content with PaperLinx under a piece of glass, then walls and structures attached via poster tac.

* Would you like to see tangible versions of this product and if so what format would you enjoy most (poster prints, vinyl mats, Cdroms, preprints)?

I am on a fairly tight budget and would probably not purchase tangible mats unless I saw them as being HIGHLY reusable. I would however consider "precut" as a possibility.

Looking at our two existing Himmelveil sets (Thoumont's and Harbormaster), what do you like about them? What do you dislike? If we were to use these as a 'baseline' for other Himmelveil releases, what elements of them do you definitely want to see, and what elements should we avoid?

I built Thoumont's and enjoyed it greatly. I haven't built Harbormaster. I enjoy the level of detail that has gone into the sets and look forward to other Himmelveil sets having a few "trying out new things" kind of props and build processes.

Other

I have one suggestion that was also made above...I would love to have sample layouts in "footprint" sets. The sample layouts would be both for entire layouts and also the small options that one has in a set (the shapes of the cliffs in Hinterland for instance).

I use Hex

* What do you want Himmelveil to be? What should it encompass? What areas are you most interested in seeing?

Honestly I want to be able to use Himmelveil set(s) from simple hovel mud street villages or large scale slums to grand manors, Government districts, market squares, docks to city walls and gates. I want to see taverns and shops, average row houses to detached houses of the rich. I'd really like to see some row houses. Tudor style maybe?

I want to see the street system being modular and come in at odd angles like real medieval streets. Only modern cities have the habit of being grids. (mind you living in Oxford has made me miss the more practical grid streets of N. America )

Think or .

* How would you like to see releases handled (size, price)?

Not to go over $30.00 at the most. Releases? Not to sporadic? Have a solid release plan. Know what kind of districts Himmelveil has and release one to two sets in a row from each district allowing the customers to build up those areas before moving onto the next section of town.

To release this, then that, then over there will leave people with a mess of a city board that does not match well with each other. This is assuming your going to release different areas or districts of Himmelveil.

* What order would you like to see things released?

Hmmm. I'd like to see Streets first, then the Harbour expanded, then moving into the business district (or one of the business districts, market squares) so you can make use of the two sets already out. Then turn to the slums. With the slums you could make a medieval gang war game. I love standees

* What format do you want or need in your games (gridless, 1”, 1.5”, hex)?

I only use Gridless, 1.5" and Hex

* How modular? (everything compatible with everything else or character structures which may or may not be totally modular with other sets).

I would have to say it be totally modular with other sets. This only encourages your customers to purchase other sets you offer if they all fit in nicely with each other.

* What’s your favorite build mode out of all the various things we’ve experimented with in the past? (free floating walls, place as you play, 2.5-D, masterboard, Chunky style)

For cities I really prefer the Place as you Play. I know you have tried some free floating walls styles with Shellendrak but I find them fiddly. However in Matt's defence, because I perceived them to be fiddly I actually never built them. It is a total assumption on my part.

Although I admit that wall system may be the best way to do it if you make your road system is organic like it should be.

* Would you like to see tangible versions of this product and if so what format would you enjoy most (poster prints, vinyl mats, Cdroms, preprints)?

I like pdf's. I have a computer, printer and internet connection. I see no reason that I would get any other version of WWG products.

OTHER

About the . Organic City Streets would really be nice. . Moving from good repair, to disrepair to mud streets. Pot holes, water filled and empty, Going from Cobblestone (Metalled surface) to a more bricked surface for the government and rich areas.

p.s. I like hexes.
P.s.s. I like standees
p.s.s.s. I will probably continue to edit this post.

I generally build and game on layouts that are 5 tiles by 5 tiles, so 35" x 35". I would like to see a basic set that will permit me to build a high medieval city within that framework.

I am less interested in Masterboard sets than I am in sets that can be built on 7"x7" tiles.

The buildings themselves should be fairly generic in the first set so that they can be used as pretty much anything. They do not have to be 7" square, but could be any size that fits onto a 7" tile. This would create alleyways down the sides of buildings, by default. I would prefer that the buildings have interiors too, because I have little or no use for flats (we almost always make use of building interiors in our games as cover and places to spring ambushes), although, if the buildings are compatible with the IW sets, then I would use those to flesh out the interiors.

We play on plain tiles (no grids) and that would be my preference.

I like the idea of a proper medieval street layout, but think that might be difficult to achieve in a modular style.

Overall, I would like a set that is suitable for skirmish wargaming. Although I do not play Mordheim, that might be a good referent for the set.

I think in the basic set I would like to see a simple street plan and several generic buildings that can be customised into shops with signs or left plain as dwellings. I like the Harbourmaster and Thoumont sets and would love to see more specialised releases like these, e.g. an Inn set for bar-room brawls, larger buildings that occupy multiple tiles as government buildings, etc.

Hope these few thoughts help,
Ruarigh

What do you want Himmelveil to be? What should it encompass? What areas are you most interested in seeing?
I would like Himmelveil to encompass more styles than is in Village Works, or Pubs n Inns etc. I am rather sick of the “Medieval building” look, by that I mean the kind of Timber and Stucco style you see in Thoumont’s, VillageWorks, and Pubs & Inns. I want some other more Fantasy styles, and not just the stonework from like the Castles, Village works, and Harbor etc. I want Fantasy, Tree dwellings, or living structures made from, “living wood, trees shrubs etc” or at least a much more very organic looking areas for the elves, or “nature” types. Much smoother clean walls with out the cut blocks of stone, perhaps shaped by magic but still “stone”. I want a mix of the classic architecture, as well as the completely fantastic. I want a mix of species and cultures, not just the European Stucco and Timber that predominates so much Fantasy. I’d love to see a Fully suspended off the ground “tree city” to go along with the idea of Hinterlands, maybe a few more trees, to support the walk ways between buildings, walk ways, dwellings made from the trees, around the trees, suspended between the trees etc. I want “fantasy”.

How would you like to see releases handled (size, price)?
I’d like a nice mix of release, Flats fully detailed buildings, maybe and likely eventually a bit of reduncancey really as the sme types of buildings and sets get re-released in different cultures and styles. For a varied city or cities, to populate a world.

What order would you like to see things released?
A “streets” stlye, a few or specific buildings, and some “Flats” in three different sets in rather quick succession in a style, to allow for quick build of an area. Preferably with different cultures styles following soon afte,r some as large sets (like the Elf Tree city style, or “hobbit Hole” etc.). But ideally an intro to a culture/species to do some quick fleshing out, then some details in that culture and setting, then on to another to give us a variety of things to pick from for our worlds. It’s always what I have liked about WWG and the cardstock terrain in general, a quick way to build a setting generic area, which you supply the rules for.

What format do you want or need in your games (gridless, 1”, 1.5”, hex)?
Most of my games are 1” but I say make them all, for greater use by people.

How modular? (everything compatible with everything else or character structures which may or may not be totally modular with other sets).
While the flats and some of the generic for building a large city would be great to be compatible, the Character structures really do add the details, and well character to the city, they are the center points for adventures in RPG or scenarios in tabletop war games.

What’s your favorite build mode out of all the various things we’ve experimented with in the past? (free floating walls, place as you play, 2.5-D, masterboard, Chunky style)
I guess free floating wall, I don’t like the 2.5 D, While Chunky looks good, the “flat walls” that you can put where ever you like is the best, I am guessing that is free floating.

Would you like to see tangible versions of this product and if so what format would you enjoy most (poster prints, vinyl mats, Cdroms, preprints)? Tangible is not something I want, I want to be able to print what I need not something already done for me which may not suit my needs.

Woa ! my head hurts... Hope Denny is a better Santa than me because at half the list I couldn't read more... But I really want all that the other have asked and a few more

Well seiously... I'm into the 1" but maybe I should go to grideless...

I would love to be like Mayhem...but...and that's a but with Mayhem...a bit more of variety in the streets... every set should have a new street... you can't make a city look "organic" with every tile with the same paper in it... so the idea of diferent sizes...textures for the streets would be lovely..

The rest of the things I left to you... only a last wish make doble backupcopy this time please... we can't stand another leftdown..

I just thought of another wish I'd like to see added, a "kitbash flat" like the one in BOM (I think that was the set) one with an extra long, generic (blank) wall in two (or three) styles/textures with a sheet of standard windows and doors so we can build up some flats with custom profiles.

Richard

* What do you want Himmelveil to be? What should it encompass? What areas are you most interested in seeing?

Congested mulitstory tenements w/ shops on gound floor. Also inclined streets. Harbor district for certain ... (tough and dangerous looking waterfront).

* How would you like to see releases handled (size, price)?

At least enough buildings and props to make a decent diorama. Would not go above $20, mainly because I can't afford it.

* What order would you like to see things released?

Diorama style sections of blocks ... interchangeable.

* What format do you want or need in your games (gridless, 1”, 1.5”, hex)?

Gridless

* How modular? (everything compatible with everything else or character structures which may or may not be totally modular with other sets).

Very modular except for a rare oddity now then then.

* What’s your favorite build mode out of all the various things we’ve experimented with in the past? (free floating walls, place as you play, 2.5-D, masterboard, Chunky style)

Master board.

* Would you like to see tangible versions of this product and if so what format would you enjoy most (poster prints, vinyl mats, Cdroms, preprints)?
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